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RAW edit " Order Of Operations "
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Jan 14, 2024 13:57:22   #
BobHartung Loc: Bettendorf, IA
 
MrBob wrote:
After being involved in a recent Math Puzzle regarding " Order Of Operations " it occurred to me that I should reevaluate my order of operations in editing a RAW file... A simple google gave me this list in order from top to bottom... What do you all think ? Maybe I have been doing things backwards ?

The new recommended order will be:
1. AI Denoise.
2. Content-Aware Remove/Heal/Spot.
3. Lens Profile Corrections (CA & Lens Profile if available)
4. Transform Panel.
5. Crop.
6. Profile.
7. Global Adjustments.
8. Local Adjustments.
After being involved in a recent Math Puzzle regar... (show quote)


This is why when I need to move to PS from LrC, I always open my image as a SmartObject, so that if I need to make RAW edits I can still go back and make tweaks.

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Jan 14, 2024 14:12:27   #
Jack 13088 Loc: Central NY
 
Jack 13088 wrote:
Well ACR (and I assume all raw editors) rebuild the image from scratch after each change to create the preview you see on the screen. The changes are applied in the optimal order so the order in which you apply them does’t matter. By the way, the previews are created only to the resolution and color space required for the monitor to save time and space. In Lightroom the previews are stored with the catalog and when it is exported or sent to Photoshop they are rendered to the resolution and color space specified which is why the export of a number of images takes such a large amount of processing time.
Well ACR (and I assume all raw editors) rebuild th... (show quote)


I should have added that it is faster to wait to do the more compute intensive operations such as sharpen/noise reduction and lens correction until the end to save time during editing.

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Jan 14, 2024 14:14:25   #
CliffMcKenzie Loc: Lake Athens Texas
 
Ready for a surprise? LRC Develop Module actually is setup based on Adobe recommended workflow.
Is that what I do? Close

1. During import apply my preset import. This preset import includs lens profile correction and sharpening set to 0.
2. Look at the images and if they are all shot under the same conditions (this is very rare), set white balance and “As Shot” and then sync all images.
3. “R” – this takes you instantly to Develop Module and Crop. Make sure image is level and will crop as needed.*
4. Basic panel address profile needs (note #2 is rare)
5. Standard image, I might try Auto. A night image, eclipse, never use Auto. Also check vibrance and saturation at this point.
6. Depending on the shot (always), I usually start with dehaze and then move up to Texture or Clarity.
7. Move to Masking…masking is really cool
8. Look at image to remove anything distracting. I like LRC’s new help here, but I usually round trip to PS.
9. Now it is time for Topaz Denoise and\or Sharpen. The ISO in many cases points which direction. If it very light, I will use LRC denoise. * If I know I going to use Topaz AI, I do it early in the process as AI wants the whole pre-cropped image...I am not a fan of this. Example a good image of a person but also in the image is very bright light that will be cropped out.

Note, you can batch process, via roundtripping. I do all like images at one time.

Last point – always work from Collections.

Hope this helps, Cliff

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Jan 14, 2024 14:22:43   #
DirtFarmer Loc: Escaped from the NYC area, back to MA
 
Jack 13088 wrote:
Well ACR (and I assume all raw editors) rebuild the image from scratch after each change to create the preview you see on the screen. The changes are applied in the optimal order so the order in which you apply them does’t matter. By the way, the previews are created only to the resolution and color space required for the monitor to save time and space. In Lightroom the previews are stored with the catalog and when it is exported or sent to Photoshop they are rendered to the resolution and color space specified which is why the export of a number of images takes such a large amount of processing time.
Well ACR (and I assume all raw editors) rebuild th... (show quote)


I am not a software engineer but I doubt that Lightroom automatically uses the optimal sequence in producing an image from raw data even though it uses ACR.

Lightroom presents you with a list of the edit history. You can do a little bit of one edit, then do a bunch more, then adjust the first edit again. As many times as you need to. I can't see it trying to take your sequence and re-sequence it into an optimal sequence. I'm not sure all the edits are commutative.

ACR might well go through a standard sequence but that means that Lightroom would apply ACR to each edit command separately. So Lightroom would apply ACR multiple times. I have no way to evaluate whether that's what it does.

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Jan 14, 2024 14:25:24   #
CHG_CANON Loc: the Windy City
 
Our subscriber friends should all recognize bringing the images into Lightroom belongs near the top of the sequence of steps. Those with the Topaz AI tools should recognize they need to output their RAW processing to DNG and bring the processed image into LR with the Topaz edits in the DNG 'wrapper'.

Whether you start with Lightroom or Topaz really depends on the specifics of the image, rather than a default 'always' workflow. Only in rare situations do my images need noise processing for the entire set of culled results.

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Jan 14, 2024 14:29:27   #
DirtFarmer Loc: Escaped from the NYC area, back to MA
 
CliffMcKenzie wrote:
Ready for a surprise? LRC Develop Module actually is setup based on Adobe recommended workflow...


Are you saying that we should be going top to bottom on the Develop Module panel?





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Jan 14, 2024 15:11:25   #
CliffMcKenzie Loc: Lake Athens Texas
 
DirtFarmer wrote:
Are you saying that we should be going top to bottom on the Develop Module panel?


First, your example shows a jpeg and not a raw example. You just hired the Morman Tabernacle Choir to hum.

Second, both Library and Develop Modules were created to suggest running down left panel, across the top and then down the right side. It is a suggestion from Adobe, a good starting point. In the Develop Module, you need to watch the left panel with a focus of Navigator and History but the workflow is on the right side. After Basic, I would recommend just above a left to right starting with Edit and ending with Mask.

Is this what I do? No, in my example odds are I am going to Crop (R) first. As stated prior, type of images and even mix of types of images will dictate a custom response.

What about Tone Curve to Calibration boxes below? Use them but only if a specific need dictate. Keep your boxes in Solo mode.

Hope this helps, Cliff

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Jan 14, 2024 15:29:18   #
CamB Loc: Juneau, Alaska
 
This is always a funny discussion. Everybody does it differently. Take a little of this answer and add a little of that answer. Maybe a dash of this one, then flip the whole sequence and that's how I do it sometimes, depending on the subject and who is going to win the Packers game.
I always start with exposure in a general way and sync the next bunch of shots if they are sort of the same. This will change as I fine tune them. Cropping comes fairly soon and dehaze before black levels most of the time. When the file generally looks good I might do some masking and custom dodging and burning. Denoise, sharpening and lens corrections are always way at the bottom and I might even print a few small versions around this time before I commit to a big or final print.
So, you see, a little of this and a little of that. And tomorrow I might change it all up. There isn't a right or a wrong way, just my way and your way.

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Jan 14, 2024 16:01:00   #
DirtFarmer Loc: Escaped from the NYC area, back to MA
 
CliffMcKenzie wrote:
First, your example shows a jpeg and not a raw example. You just hired the Morman Tabernacle Choir to hum.

Well, I did choose a random image, but it was actually a psd that had originally started as a nef, not a jpg. I should have chosen a different image. Mea Culpa.

CliffMcKenzie wrote:
Second, both Library and Develop Modules were created to suggest running down left panel, across the top and then down the right side. It is a suggestion from Adobe, a good starting point. In the Develop Module, you need to watch the left panel with a focus of Navigator and History but the workflow is on the right side. After Basic, I would recommend just above a left to right starting with Edit and ending with Mask.


I usually ignore the left panel while editing unless I want to modify the edits. I concentrate on the image and the effect thereon from the sliders I'm working at the moment. I suppose I work this way because, being male, I have never read the Adobe instructions that tell me what to do. I just do what I think works.

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Jan 14, 2024 16:03:19   #
DirtFarmer Loc: Escaped from the NYC area, back to MA
 
CamB wrote:
... There isn't a right or a wrong way, just my way and your way.



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Jan 14, 2024 17:06:47   #
fantom Loc: Colorado
 
R.G. wrote:
I agree with getting any lens corrections, levelling, cropping and cloning done early. Sharpening and denoise should be done together and there's an argument for not doing sharpening too early - it can affect how brushes work.

I see AI denoise as being required only when the noise is extreme. As a general rule denoise should be done minimally, and if your AI denoise doesn't have that option I would advise against using it (unless you're completely unconcerned about holding on to a natural look).

With some editors, cloning over areas where a brush has already been used can lead to strange effects like stuff showing through a clone patch even when opacity is 100%, so leaving local adjustments till late on is a good idea. Where global adjustments are concerned I leave any Clarity adjustments to the end and I use it minimally. Too much Clarity will kill a natural look at least as quickly as too much saturation or contrast, and if you add contrast after applying Clarity it can result in diffuse haloing.
I agree with getting any lens corrections, levelli... (show quote)



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Jan 14, 2024 19:34:57   #
MrBob Loc: lookout Mtn. NE Alabama
 
DirtFarmer wrote:
I usually ignore the left panel while editing unless I want to modify the edits. I concentrate on the image and the effect thereon from the sliders I'm working at the moment. I suppose I work this way because, being male, I have never read the Adobe instructions that tell me what to do. I just do what I think works.


Yep, the right panel sliders seem to be the basic place to be...

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Jan 14, 2024 19:37:37   #
MrBob Loc: lookout Mtn. NE Alabama
 
CamB wrote:
This is always a funny discussion. Everybody does it differently. Take a little of this answer and add a little of that answer. Maybe a dash of this one, then flip the whole sequence and that's how I do it sometimes, depending on the subject and who is going to win the Packers game.
I always start with exposure in a general way and sync the next bunch of shots if they are sort of the same. This will change as I fine tune them. Cropping comes fairly soon and dehaze before black levels most of the time. When the file generally looks good I might do some masking and custom dodging and burning. Denoise, sharpening and lens corrections are always way at the bottom and I might even print a few small versions around this time before I commit to a big or final print.
So, you see, a little of this and a little of that. And tomorrow I might change it all up. There isn't a right or a wrong way, just my way and your way.
This is always a funny discussion. Everybody does ... (show quote)


Yep, getting into a n assembly line process takes a lot of the creative fun out of it... Every click seems to want you to start in maybe a different area... One thing I AM consistent in is White Balance...

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Jan 14, 2024 20:28:15   #
TriX Loc: Raleigh, NC
 
I crop first

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Jan 14, 2024 23:06:13   #
Jack 13088 Loc: Central NY
 
DirtFarmer wrote:
I am not a software engineer but I doubt that Lightroom automatically uses the optimal sequence in producing an image from raw data even though it uses ACR.

Lightroom presents you with a list of the edit history. You can do a little bit of one edit, then do a bunch more, then adjust the first edit again. As many times as you need to. I can't see it trying to take your sequence and re-sequence it into an optimal sequence. I'm not sure all the edits are commutative.

ACR might well go through a standard sequence but that means that Lightroom would apply ACR to each edit command separately. So Lightroom would apply ACR multiple times. I have no way to evaluate whether that's what it does.
I am not a software engineer but I doubt that Ligh... (show quote)

I am not a software engineer either. In the development process in worked in I was a System Engineer I wrote the specifications the software engineers design, code and test to. A big difference to our customers anyway.

Neither do I have inside information on the workings of any raw editors other than the considerable information revealed in The Lightroom Queen’s FAQ book and poking around with the user files LrC creates particularly the sidecar files.

Let’s establish a common understanding about what is happening. Since the individual sensor elements are color blind there is a mosaic of red, green and blue filters immediately in front of the sensor array such that the raw data must be de-mosaic processed to recover the color data. This process is not reversible so you cannot save your edits in the same file type. Rather than save the full resultant file after each edit Adobe saves the setting you used. With Lightroom it saves the edit settings in the catalog database. With Ps or Bridge it saves the settings in a sidecar file. It also records the actions in the in the History display.

Since as you noted actions are not commutative ACR automatically applies them in the appropriate (optimal) order. So it starts all over applying the edits in the proper order before showing you the preview. The original raw image is cached in memory to make the editing seem seamless. To answer the OP’s original question order does not matter. Use whatever seems comfortable to you. I repeat my suggestion of leaving the longer operations to last to save time in every do over.

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