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Dec 1, 2023 09:35:06   #
terryMc Loc: Arizona's White Mountains
 
imagextrordinair wrote:
I have to say...
You do consistently have the most accurate and simplest answers to technical subjects. I think I am well rounded myself, but do learn a lot from your knowledge and common sense experience. many would gain more by listening and paying attention instead of trying to disprove the words of those posting or just ignoring what is plainly stated.

That said, can you elaborate on the difference between dot's per inch vs pixels when printing to end the confusion.

From what I understand PPi determines the physical size of a print, and DPI the color and quality that can be printed from the PPi data. In that, pixels are picture elements, or the smallest unit a screen can display and dots per inch are the smallest thing a printer can print.

The answer needed to illustrate...

How would an image from lets say from a Fuji GFX 100 cropped to 20 megapixels, then sized and printed to 48" x 36" with the maximum 1200 dpi... compared to the full 100 mpxl image at the same print size, but with only 100 dpi? ...
I have to say... br You do consistently have the m... (show quote)


Once again, ppi is the number of pixels contained in one inch of a digital image. Dpi is a measure of the distance apart of drops of ink on paper. A pixel has a border—you can magnify your image and view individual pixels and they will be square, exactly the same size, and exactly border the neighboring pixel. Ink dots will vary in size depending on the printer, are measured in picoliters (which I believe is a measure of volume of ink and not physical size of the drop; someone can correct me if I misunderstand that) and under a microscope would look more like a blob with rough edges, because when the ink hits the paper, it soaks in and spreads depending on the surface of the paper. That is why your choice of paper for a print is so important when printing. Ink will spread less and soak in less on high gloss paper than on matte or rag, and the look will be very different.

An electronic picture element and an ink drop are completely different things and cannot and should not be directly compared.

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Dec 1, 2023 09:47:27   #
Bill_de Loc: US
 
MJPerini wrote:
re @ Bill_de
While I responded to this earlier Bill raises a good point which I also alluded to in my comment.
Photography and photographic Prints Both begin and end with looking. If the results pleas you thats a good thing.
All the math came second, from reverse engineering the numbers involved from good looking Prints.
They are all guidelines, they guarantee nothing. Because printing processes and opinions about what constitutes a good print vary quite widely. The same print viewed at different distances, might be judged quite differently.
There is a reason that a picture with insufficient pixels according to 'guidelines' can make a beautiful print.
A scene without lots of small detail does not require as much pixel resolution to look good. Likewise a wide Gamut inkjet printer on fine paper has a better chance of producing an attractive print than a commercial 4 color offset on cheap paper. Then there is file preparation, in experienced skilled hands doing file prep and editing your picture has a much better chance of looking good as a print. It is a completely mistaken notion that "If I meet these criteria, I get a good print.
Because Digital Photography has created and encouraged Pixel peepers, sharper & contrastier pictures have become the new normal, tastes change. Look back to the pictorialists and Gertrude Kasebier for a different definition of Good Print.
Printing can be enjoyed on many levels, if it is of your new grandchild you are going to automatically love it.

My point here is "Will xyzzy make a good print" is another of those unanswerable questions, that we all keep trying, (mostly in vein) to answer. Because there is always too little information, and we have no Idea of what the questioner would judge to be good
The real answer to that question is "TRY IT , AND SEE" Do the work, it is how we learn best.

Most of us genuinely would like to be helpful, so we "Walk down the same street, and fall in the same Hole"
re @ Bill_de br While I responded to this earlier ... (show quote)


Well put!

Thanks for commenting.

---

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Dec 1, 2023 09:54:00   #
raymondh Loc: Walker, MI
 
terryMc wrote:
Once again, ppi is the number of pixels contained in one inch of a digital image. Dpi is a measure of the distance apart of drops of ink on paper. A pixel has a border—you can magnify your image and view individual pixels and they will be square, exactly the same size, and exactly border the neighboring pixel. Ink dots will vary in size depending on the printer, are measured in picoliters (which I believe is a measure of volume of ink and not physical size of the drop; someone can correct me if I misunderstand that) and under a microscope would look more like a blob with rough edges, because when the ink hits the paper, it soaks in and spreads depending on the surface of the paper. That is why your choice of paper for a print is so important when printing. Ink will spread less and soak in less on high gloss paper than on matte or rag, and the look will be very different.

An electronic picture element and an ink drop are completely different things and cannot and should not be directly compared.
Once again, ppi is the number of pixels contained ... (show quote)

One of the most understandable explanations of ppi / dpi that I’ve seen. Thank you!

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Dec 1, 2023 11:46:51   #
CHG_CANON Loc: the Windy City
 
raymondh wrote:
I'm assuming that by "gold standard" you mean a high quality gallery type print which I don't need. But good to know that I can get a decent 24x16 at 200ppi.


The idea of this 300 ppi 'gold standard' is 'what' you want the print to look like, if you can hold it as close as your eyesight can focus.

Think about looking at the 1:1 pixel-level details of your images as you view them on your screen. When you print at 300+ ppi, say an 10x15in print you can hold in your hands. Other than the physical differences of the print vs the pixel-based electronic display, you should see pretty much the same level of 'fine' details. Now, image that level of fine detail spread across a print 2x3 feet. It looks great standing back a few feet and viewing the entire image, as well as stepping close and viewing just the small details, just like when you 'click' your monitor to the 1:1 pixel-level details.

But, it's important to note those are the 'original' pixels, not software-invented pixels that did not exist in the original image / crop. "Inventing" a modest amount might be immaterial, whether you print without them, say a 200 ppi ratio, or you print with the invented pixels to get to 300 ppi for the 24x36-in print. Both options will probably 'look' awesome stepping back and viewing the entire image. They'll probably look the same, too, when you step close and view the fine details (200 ppi vs an up-scaled 300 ppi, both printed to 24x36-inch).

All that said, this is mental exercise. The next step is to create the files and view them, first, digitally. Then, create the physical prints and make a formal judgement.

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Dec 1, 2023 12:03:45   #
CHG_CANON Loc: the Windy City
 
imagextrordinair wrote:
I have to say...
You do consistently have the most accurate and simplest answers to technical subjects. I think I am well rounded myself, but do learn a lot from your knowledge and common sense experience. many would gain more by listening and paying attention instead of trying to disprove the words of those posting or just ignoring what is plainly stated.

That said, can you elaborate on the difference between dot's per inch vs pixels when printing to end the confusion.

From what I understand PPi determines the physical size of a print, and DPI the color and quality that can be printed from the PPi data. In that, pixels are picture elements, or the smallest unit a screen can display and dots per inch are the smallest thing a printer can print.

The answer needed to illustrate...

How would an image from lets say from a Fuji GFX 100 cropped to 20 megapixels, then sized and printed to 48" x 36" with the maximum 1200 dpi... compared to the full 100 mpxl image at the same print size, but with only 100 dpi? ...
I have to say... br You do consistently have the m... (show quote)


There's a comment above that says something along the lines: dots are an attribute of ink on paper. Pixels are an attribute of an electronic display device. There is ZERO relationship between these two display methods. If there was a relationship, someone -- anyone -- could answer just once this basic non sequitur: how many pixels are in a dot? Or, the corollary: how many dots are in a pixel?

To your question about pixels and dpi, the question is as nonsensical as asking how many inches are in a liter of water? They have no relationship. The printer has an attribute of how many dots it will print on paper. But, those 'dots' have nothing to do with any specific image file sent to that printer.

When considering the physical printing of a pixel-based image, you want to perform some basic arithmetic steps:

1, prepare your image file (edited, cropping, etc).

2, determine your target physical print size, in inches for us here in the US.

3, review the pixel dimensions of your edited image file.

4, calculate the ppi ratio of your image file to the target print size.

5a, If the calculated ratio is 300 ppi or higher, send the file to print.

5b, if the calculated ratio is less than 300 ppi, decide if i) the target print is too large, or ii) the ratio is 'fine' for the intended print size, or iii) is there a software solution that might increase the ppi ratio? Send the file to print, when ready and / or to test ideas i, ii, and iii.

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Dec 1, 2023 12:16:07   #
User ID
 
Architect1776 wrote:
I have done excellent prints the size you describe with 6 mp camera and no special software messing with it.
You should be fine with 12 mp and messing with it in other software.
Print and poster could be proprietary definitions. Ask your specific printer what the difference is as no one here can define the difference.


Agreed. My guess, a guess FWIW, is that print vs poster suggests that the print is the highest quality option ... but, acoarst, there isnt any "industry standard" to reference.

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Dec 1, 2023 14:41:53   #
imagextrordinair Loc: Halden, Norway
 
CHG_CANON wrote:
There's a comment above that says something along the lines: dots are an attribute of ink on paper. Pixels are an attribute of an electronic display device. There is ZERO relationship between these two display methods. If there was a relationship, someone -- anyone -- could answer just once this basic non sequitur: how many pixels are in a dot? Or, the corollary: how many dots are in a pixel?

To your question about pixels and dpi, the question is as nonsensical as asking how many inches are in a liter of water? They have no relationship. The printer has an attribute of how many dots it will print on paper. But, those 'dots' have nothing to do with any specific image file sent to that printer.

When considering the physical printing of a pixel-based image, you want to perform some basic arithmetic steps:

1, prepare your image file (edited, cropping, etc).

2, determine your target physical print size, in inches for us here in the US.

3, review the pixel dimensions of your edited image file.

4, calculate the ppi ratio of your image file to the target print size.

5a, If the calculated ratio is 300 ppi or higher, send the file to print.

5b, if the calculated ratio is less than 300 ppi, decide if i) the target print is too large, or ii) the ratio is 'fine' for the intended print size, or iii) is there a software solution that might increase the ppi ratio? Send the file to print, when ready and / or to test ideas i, ii, and iii.
There's a comment above that says something along ... (show quote)


I assumed there is a gain in the spectrum of color as dpi increases? I was also assuming image quality is affected by the number of dots per inch that could go to 1200 dpi... or is there a limit because of pixel based resolution?

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Dec 1, 2023 18:20:48   #
CHG_CANON Loc: the Windy City
 
imagextrordinair wrote:
I assumed there is a gain in the spectrum of color as dpi increases? I was also assuming image quality is affected by the number of dots per inch that could go to 1200 dpi... or is there a limit because of pixel based resolution?


The printer does what the printer does. The pixel resolution of the image file has nothing to do with how the printer is configured to print. Period. End.

Go into your mind and erase the idea that dots and pixels have anything, in any context, to do with each other.

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Dec 1, 2023 18:34:36   #
Bill_de Loc: US
 
CHG_CANON wrote:
The printer does what the printer does. The pixel resolution of the image file has nothing to do with how the printer is configured to print. Period. End.

Go into your mind and erase the idea that dots and pixels have anything, in any context, to do with each other.


Are you sure this holds true on UHH?

---

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Dec 2, 2023 03:20:32   #
imagextrordinair Loc: Halden, Norway
 
CHG_CANON wrote:
The printer does what the printer does. The pixel resolution of the image file has nothing to do with how the printer is configured to print. Period. End.

Go into your mind and erase the idea that dots and pixels have anything, in any context, to do with each other.


My point...
pixels have a physical size, border and dimension that determines resolution for everything. Dots per inch in printing is a physical display of digital data in that same inch on paper. DPI is a variable that can then affect print quality beyond resolution.

A printer will use a number of different colored inks in order to create the right color. The more dots it can print per inch, the more accurate the colors will be in translating the digital data to paper. If you print at 1200 DPI, you won’t end up with distortion and the scale won’t be affected, you’ll just end up with a higher quality print than if you had you used less DPI.

Most displays with a max resolution of 96 PPI will have a bottleneck much smaller than print size and simply are a direct reading of PPI... PPI is a physical translation for PPI to create an image on paper from a printing machine.

My original question put forward was about the final print... which will most effect the actual print outcome, PPI or DPI when compared from a professional printer?

Not to argue with anyone about the technical differences, just a question about print quality...

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Dec 2, 2023 08:08:01   #
terryMc Loc: Arizona's White Mountains
 
imagextrordinair wrote:
My point...
pixels have a physical size, border and dimension that determines resolution for everything. Dots per inch in printing is a physical display of digital data in that same inch on paper. DPI is a variable that can then affect print quality beyond resolution.

A printer will use a number of different colored inks in order to create the right color. The more dots it can print per inch, the more accurate the colors will be in translating the digital data to paper. If you print at 1200 DPI, you won’t end up with distortion and the scale won’t be affected, you’ll just end up with a higher quality print than if you had you used less DPI.

Most displays with a max resolution of 96 PPI will have a bottleneck much smaller than print size and simply are a direct reading of PPI... PPI is a physical translation for PPI to create an image on paper from a printing machine.

My original question put forward was about the final print... which will most effect the actual print outcome, PPI or DPI when compared from a professional printer?

Not to argue with anyone about the technical differences, just a question about print quality...
My point... br pixels have a physical size, borde... (show quote)


The number of dots per inch as well as color channels available/used is going to be a function of the printer's driver/RIP etc. based on the instructions from the paper profile being used, which is why printing on paper that has been profiled to your specific printer is so important. Of course if you're using a professional print service, they should take care of all that for you. I quote from an article on Wikipedia:

"Up to a point, printers with higher DPI produce clearer and more detailed output. A printer does not necessarily have a single DPI measurement; it is dependent on print mode, which is usually influenced by driver settings. The range of DPI supported by a printer is most dependent on the print head technology it uses. A dot matrix printer, for example, applies ink via tiny rods striking an ink ribbon, and has a relatively low resolution, typically in the range of 60 to 90 DPI (420 to 280 μm). An inkjet printer sprays ink through tiny nozzles, and is typically capable of 300–720 DPI.[3] A laser printer applies toner through a controlled electrostatic charge, and may be in the range of 600 to 2,400 DPI."

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Dec 2, 2023 08:41:48   #
imagextrordinair Loc: Halden, Norway
 
terryMc wrote:
The number of dots per inch as well as color channels available/used is going to be a function of the printer's driver/RIP etc. based on the instructions from the paper profile being used, which is why printing on paper that has been profiled to your specific printer is so important. Of course if you're using a professional print service, they should take care of all that for you. I quote from an article on Wikipedia:

"Up to a point, printers with higher DPI produce clearer and more detailed output. A printer does not necessarily have a single DPI measurement; it is dependent on print mode, which is usually influenced by driver settings. The range of DPI supported by a printer is most dependent on the print head technology it uses. A dot matrix printer, for example, applies ink via tiny rods striking an ink ribbon, and has a relatively low resolution, typically in the range of 60 to 90 DPI (420 to 280 μm). An inkjet printer sprays ink through tiny nozzles, and is typically capable of 300–720 DPI.[3] A laser printer applies toner through a controlled electrostatic charge, and may be in the range of 600 to 2,400 DPI."
The number of dots per inch as well as color chann... (show quote)


Thanks for the response...
So the same image printed at multiple different printers could vary in quality and color depending on the printer (machine) type and printer (human) skills... also ink quality and on and on...

So...

The prior comments on a visual assessment by actually physically printing makes a very good point. The variables seem endless.

I know what works for me and have a trusted printer with the best equipment who consistently delivers perfect prints. I have had terrible results years past but eventually worked out the methodology and have a good re-pore with my current printer.

A lot depends on the printer and photographers ability to synchronize...

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