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What is JPEG??? (simplified)
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Feb 1, 2023 17:36:34   #
SuperflyTNT Loc: Manassas VA
 
shieldsadvert wrote:
Interesting article although a little over my head but the question remains since my camera's dynamic range is 11 stops, and that is the range of jpegs, what would be gained by shooting in RAW?
Thanks


JPEG’s are capable of displaying 16,777,216 colors. A 14 bit raw file can display over 4 trillion colors. Now 16 million sounds like a lot and for viewing it’s usually plenty but when you start processing is where the difference becomes apparent. The dynamic range isn’t the issue. That only determines the overall range from dark to light. The bit depth is what determines how much detail you can get out of those light and dark areas.

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Feb 1, 2023 19:43:16   #
davyboy Loc: Anoka Mn.
 
CHG_CANON wrote:
Shooting in JPEG is nothing to be ashamed of, but do it in private and wash your hands afterwards.


Will I go blind?

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Feb 1, 2023 23:01:52   #
FotoHog Loc: on Cloud 9
 
rlv567 wrote:
I have excerpted a few salient points from a very long Wikipedia article referenced in the “Why I shoot RAW” post, here, in order to simplify and make very clear the information about JPEG. The net of the whole article, simply put, is that JPEG is a means of reducing picture file size without degrading the resultant image too much – varying from imperceptible to the human eye, to unusable. It always selectively discards some of the original file’s information, that being done with regard to the perceptive capability of human vision. The resulting JPEG image, then, is not what actually was being “pictured”, but what the average human eye would “see”. This can be accomplished at varying (chosen) levels of degradation/picture quality.

“JPEG is a commonly used method of compression for digital images, particularly for those images produced by digital photography. The degree of compression can be adjusted, allowing a selectable tradeoff between storage size and image quality. JPEG typically achieves 10:1 compression with little perceptible loss in image quality.

JPEG uses a lossy form of compression based on the discrete cosine transform (DCT). This mathematical operation converts each frame/field of the video source from the spatial (2D) domain into the frequency domain (a.k.a. transform domain). A perceptual model based loosely on the human psychovisual system discards high-frequency information, i.e. sharp transitions in intensity, and color hue. In the transform domain, the process of reducing information is called quantization. In simpler terms, quantization is a method for optimally reducing a large number scale (with different occurrences of each number) into a smaller one, and the transform-domain is a convenient representation of the image because the high-frequency coefficients, which contribute less to the overall picture than other coefficients, are characteristically small-values with high compressibility. The quantized coefficients are then sequenced and losslessly packed into the output bitstream. Nearly all software implementations of JPEG permit user control over the compression ratio (as well as other optional parameters), allowing the user to trade off picture-quality for smaller file size.

The compression method is usually lossy, meaning that some original image information is lost and cannot be restored, possibly affecting image quality. There is an optional lossless mode defined in the JPEG standard. However, this mode is not widely supported in products.

Several alterations to a JPEG image can be performed losslessly (that is, without recompression and the associated quality loss) as long as the image size is a multiple of 1 MCU block (Minimum Coded Unit) (usually 16 pixels in both directions, for 4:2:0 chroma subsampling). Utilities that implement this include:
• IrfanView using "JPG Lossless Crop (PlugIn)" and "JPG Lossless Rotation (PlugIn)", which require installing the JPG_TRANSFORM plugin.
• FastStone Image Viewer using "Lossless Crop to File" and "JPEG Lossless Rotate".
• XnViewMP using "JPEG lossless transformations".
• ACDSee supports lossless rotation (but not lossless cropping) with its "Force lossless JPEG operations" option.

Image files that employ JPEG compression are commonly called "JPEG files", and are stored in variants of the JIF image format. Most image capture devices (such as digital cameras) that output JPEG are actually creating files in the Exif format, the format that the camera industry has standardized on for metadata interchange. On the other hand, since the Exif standard does not allow color profiles, most image editing software stores JPEG in JFIF format, and also includes the APP1 segment from the Exif file to include the metadata in an almost-compliant way; the JFIF standard is interpreted somewhat flexibly.

Many JPEG files embed an ICC color profile (color space). Commonly used color profiles include sRGB and Adobe RGB. Because these color spaces use a non-linear transformation, the dynamic range of an 8-bit JPEG file is about 11 stops.

If the image doesn't specify color profile information (untagged), the color space is assumed to be sRGB for the purposes of display on webpages.

Many of the options in the JPEG standard are not commonly used, and most image software uses the simpler JFIF format when creating a JPEG file, which among other things specifies the encoding method. Here is a brief description of one of the more common methods of encoding when applied to an input that has 24 bits per pixel (eight each of red, green, and blue). This particular option is a lossy data compression method.

First, the image should be converted from RGB (by default sRGB, but other color spaces are possible) into a different color space called Y′CBCR (or, informally, YCbCr). It has three components Y', CB and CR: the Y' component represents the brightness of a pixel, and the CB and CR components represent the chrominance (split into blue and red components).

A particular conversion to Y′CBCR is specified in the JFIF standard, and should be performed for the resulting JPEG file to have maximum compatibility.

Due to the densities of color and brightness-sensitive receptors in the human eye, humans can see considerably more fine detail in the brightness of an image (the Y' component) than in the hue and color saturation of an image (the Cb and Cr components). Using this knowledge, encoders can be designed to compress images more efficiently.

The transformation into the Y′CBCR color model enables the next usual step, which is to reduce the spatial resolution of the Cb and Cr components (called "downsampling" or "chroma subsampling").
The human eye is good at seeing small differences in brightness over a relatively large area, but not so good at distinguishing the exact strength of a high frequency brightness variation. This allows one to greatly reduce the amount of information in the high frequency components.

Since the quantization stage always results in a loss of information, JPEG standard is always a lossy compression codec. (Information is lost both in quantizing and rounding of the floating-point numbers.) Even if the quantization matrix is a matrix of ones, information will still be lost in the rounding step.

Those who use the World Wide Web may be familiar with the irregularities known as compression artifacts that appear in JPEG images, which may take the form of noise around contrasting edges (especially curves and corners), or "blocky" images.

Ten to one compression usually results in an image that cannot be distinguished by eye from the original. A compression ratio of 100:1 is usually possible, but will look distinctly artifacted compared to the original. The appropriate level of compression depends on the use to which the image will be put.

In the last few years, due to the growing use of stereoscopic images, much effort has been spent by the scientific community to develop algorithms for stereoscopic image compression.”

Loren – in Beautiful Baguio City
I have excerpted a few salient points from a very ... (show quote)

Are you sure you didn't over-simplify? . . . .

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Feb 1, 2023 23:07:33   #
FotoHog Loc: on Cloud 9
 
CHG_CANON wrote:
Shooting in JPEG is nothing to be ashamed of, but do it in private and wash your hands afterwards.

And don't forget to disinfect!!! . . .

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Feb 2, 2023 08:12:23   #
jlg1000 Loc: Uruguay / South America
 
LEWHITE7747 wrote:
Jared Polin has started using JPEG's as they are now (with the new algorithms) as good as RAW files.


Have you looked at his t-shirt?

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Feb 2, 2023 09:42:23   #
BigDaddy Loc: Pittsburgh, PA
 
JohnR wrote:
Film, digital, RAW, Jpeg, SOOC, 35mm, APSC, M4/3, DSLR, Mirrorless, bridge, compact, smart phone -does it matter how you got there as long as the final image is what you wanted?

Its just a journey - going home does it matter how you get there? bus, car, bike, plane, boat, feet, horse,wheelchair as long as you reach your destination when you wanted to, as you wanted to!

I don't know which are more irritating the "I always shoot RAW" brigade, the odd "mirrorless way of life" people or those crusty old curmudgeons who criticise everything (probably includes me in the latter)
Film, digital, RAW, Jpeg, SOOC, 35mm, APSC, M4/3, ... (show quote)

Ther more you understand how things work, the better off you are. Making decisions on all you mentioned is best done if you have a somewhat accurate knowledge base to make decisions.

Knowledge can be obtained in a few ways. Experience is one and discussing things in a forum is another. I'm of course a crusty old curmudgeon. But I've questioned EVERYTHING my entire life. Nothing is ever "settled" and can subject to investigation and further learning.

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Feb 2, 2023 09:43:43   #
rlv567 Loc: Baguio City, Philippines
 
jlg1000 wrote:
Have you looked at his t-shirt?


BY DEFINITION, JPEG files NEVER can be as good as RAW - though they may be good enough for some. For the very best results, it has to be RAW plus the best post processing software.

Loren - in Beautiful Baguio City

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Feb 2, 2023 09:47:59   #
ashriverguy Loc: Rural Minnesota
 
That’s funny

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Feb 2, 2023 10:06:24   #
jlg1000 Loc: Uruguay / South America
 
LEWHITE7747 wrote:
Jared Polin has started using JPEG's as they are now (with the new algorithms) as good as RAW files.


A) watch his t-shirt, where does it read "I SHOOR JPEG NOW"

B) what does it mean "as good as" ?

I've got a broken wrench which I use as a door stopper.

I could say "I started to use wrenches as they are now (with the new modifications) as good as door stoppers.

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Feb 2, 2023 11:07:13   #
BigDaddy Loc: Pittsburgh, PA
 
SuperflyTNT wrote:
JPEG’s are capable of displaying 16,777,216 colors. A 14 bit raw file can display over 4 trillion colors. Now 16 million sounds like a lot and for viewing it’s usually plenty but when you start processing is where the difference becomes apparent. The dynamic range isn’t the issue. That only determines the overall range from dark to light. The bit depth is what determines how much detail you can get out of those light and dark areas.

Well, there are supposedly 18 decillion varieties of color (around and infinite number), and your camera and human eye can only see a small number or them, raw or jpg. The raw photo only 16 million, a measly amount, and the human eye at best see 10 million colors.

Theoretically,(on paper,) a RAW file may superior to a JPEG file the question being is that extra information necessary for your intended results. In other words, if you can't see see it, is shooting RAW really any advantage?

Nothing wrong with using raw, other than most non-editing, non-artistic experts will often produce WORSE results than the camera provides them, and 99% of the time raw is completely unnecessary for getting a good picture.

The other main issue is can you edit a JPG image? Of course you can. You need to know a jpg image can easily give you a full stop above and below correct exposure. Normally, anyone with a modern digital camera can, with no effort, pull that off. I was doing it 50 years ago with old SLR's that had no automation and slide film that had zero tolerance and couldn't even be edited, and I had little clue what I was doing. You would have to be exceptionally inept at photography not to get within 2 f stops today, and knowing when this doesn't cut it is pretty darn simple, and raw is only one solution, there are others for those instances.

The reason there are BILLIONS of fantastic JPG captures floating around, is because normally, jpg is more than adequate for taking most pictures, and editing them with out fooling around with RAW.

RAW is the last thing that makes for a good picture.



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Feb 2, 2023 11:25:00   #
BigDaddy Loc: Pittsburgh, PA
 
rlv567 wrote:
BY DEFINITION, JPEG files NEVER can be as good as RAW - though they may be good enough for some. For the very best results, it has to be RAW plus the best post processing software.

Loren - in Beautiful Baguio City

Well that's plain and simply FALSE.
JPG is often superior to RAW, particularly after non-experts and non-artists fire up the raw editor and start fooling around.

Just because RAW contains more information, and has the potential for superior results, does NOT mean it's going to be needed, nor that you're capable of actually pulling it off. 99% of the time you can EASILY get the same or better results editing a jpg image.

Just perusing the hogger images that sport the "I Shoot Raw" T-shirts will quickly show their images are no better and often worse than those shooting and editing jpg images. If you look closer, as far as image quality is concerned (not content) you will find over and over and over that the majority of knock your socks off, curl your toes images are shot with high end camera's and lenses. Raw is almost NEVER an issue.

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Feb 2, 2023 11:44:55   #
jlg1000 Loc: Uruguay / South America
 
BigDaddy wrote:

The reason there are BILLIONS of fantastic JPG captures floating around, is because normally, jpg is more than adequate for taking most pictures, and editing them with out fooling around with RAW.


The reasons there are BILLIONS of fantastic JPG captures floating around are:
....a) Were taken by the dezillions of mobile devices, such as phones, GO PROs and the like
....b) Are final edited and exported RAW's
or c) Were taken by very competent photographers who like to fiddle with flimsy in camera controls

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Feb 2, 2023 11:49:46   #
rlv567 Loc: Baguio City, Philippines
 
BigDaddy wrote:
Well that's plain and simply FALSE.
JPG is often superior to RAW, particularly after non-experts and non-artists fire up the raw editor and start fooling around.

Just because RAW contains more information, and has the potential for superior results, does NOT mean it's going to be needed, nor that you're capable of actually pulling it off. 99% of the time you can EASILY get the same or better results editing a jpg image.

Just perusing the hogger images that sport the "I Shoot Raw" T-shirts will quickly show their images are no better and often worse than those shooting and editing jpg images. If you look closer, as far as image quality is concerned (not content) you will find over and over and over that the majority of knock your socks off, curl your toes images are shot with high end camera's and lenses. Raw is almost NEVER an issue.
Well that's plain and simply FALSE. br JPG is oft... (show quote)


Why do you choose to ignore the FACT that the CAPABILITY of image production of RAW IS superior to JPEG. It should be obvious to you that I am not discussing the results obtained by those who do not know what they are doing - with either! I certainly will agree that JPEG may produce acceptable results in the hands of someone ignorant of valid processing while RAW will not, but that is not my concern! I also have agreed that JPEG can be quite satisfactory for many, and under the right circumstances result in quality pictures. I fail to understand the need of some to make this an either/or situation, where one is the ONLY way to go! If I shoot only RAW, it certainly is very easy for me to get a JPEG if needed, and I have no processing limitations.

Loren - in Beautiful Baguio City

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Feb 2, 2023 12:02:29   #
grcolts
 
CHG_CANON wrote:
Shooting in JPEG is nothing to be ashamed of, but do it in private and wash your hands afterwards.


LOL

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Feb 2, 2023 12:07:43   #
jlg1000 Loc: Uruguay / South America
 
The saddest thing is that this JPEG vs RAW endless discussion should't even exist.

Believe me, I know about JPEGs... I have even written code to handle those horrible files.

The fact is that JPEG (ISO TC 97 / ISO/IEC 10918-1:1994) is *horribly hopelessly obsolete* It is so bad that it doesn't even have the possibility of data extension (just as the original audio CD) ... only different resolutions. Did you know that the original draft was intended for *fixed* 640x480 resolution only suitable for IBM VGA displays? Did you know that it was pushed by IBM, not because it was good, but to obliterate competing card/monitor assemblies?

The problem is that it was the lesser evil in a time where kilobits per second mattered, so it was widely adopted. Other (older) formats were even worse.

Immediately after the initial publication of ISO TC 97 in 1992, far better standards where published which were capable of variable bit depth, big color spaces, better compression, less artifacts, etc. etc. etc.

Take for example ISO/IEC 15444 which allows for lossless/lossy compression, big color depth, etc.
Take JPG XL, or even Apple's HEIC.

But they were never fully adopted because everybody was on the JPEG vagon, and JPEG was ... aahhh, good enough. And adopting a new standard costs *TONS* of money.

If some of the later standards had been adopted, modern SOOCs could really encode the full sensor readout, so the RAW patchy solution wouldn't be needed.

Yes I shoot exclusively RAW because I edit every photo, but from an engineering point of view, I am very aware that it is only a workaround to the poooooor oooooold JPG standard, which should belong to the history books, together with the floppy disk, Lotus 1-2-3 and the Sinclair Spectrum.

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