Is Ugly Hedgehog and other photo communities selling photos you post on their websites?
Oct 4, 2022 14:50:57 #
r1ch
Loc: Colorado
Have you seen these new AI art creation and image production software like Mid Journey and Stable Diffusion going around lately that seem to create wonderous image output with some odd mistakes?
Though not much into conspiracy theories myself, I do have one for this type of AI. This year I questioned PhotoFocus terms of service concerning using user images. they referred me to MightNetworks and they told me I owned my images and not to worry (lawyers disagreed and one said remove your images from the site) Mighty networks had this wording in their TOS."a nonexclusive, worldwide, royalty free, fully paid up, transferable,sublicensable (through multiple tiers), perpetual, irrevocable license to copy, display, transmit, perform, distribute, store, modify, and otherwise use Your Content" This verbiage is on a number of photo communities supposedly there for lawsuit protection..... AI uses data (images) to use in AI Focus or image creation. I wonder if those images from these communities are loaded into AI like Stable Diffusion. AI cannot make up places or images out of thin air. it can only create from what it knows, it can only understand what is available and makes changes based on what it has programmed into it. I wonder if the reason AI makes strange "mistakes" is because it purposely changes the image so it is not identical to the ones fed into the AI. "AI" then uses keywords to pull up images and put parts of these images into one image changing color and lighting and using filters. I consulted a free online attorney site about this TOS wording and they said no one should post on sites like Photofocus with this type of wording if they don't want their images used by the site for their own purpose and stated they could clearly use your images in anyway they wanted to. I have no proof this is what is happening but I would bet money this is where AI is getting it's origins image data library from, because it is getting it from somewhere. And because of the changes, AI making "mistakes" and change in lighting, people don't recognize their own images. You can search the Photofocus open forum for my post as it is still there if you want links to my answered questions and lawyers replies. Here is a link, you have to click all the more links and to see the full lawyer response "At the risk of having my answer labeled "lame", I would remove all my photos from that site immediately, and not agree to the new terms."...
https://www.avvo.com/legal-answers/a-photography-websites-new-terms-of-service----doe-5437618.html?utm_medium=b2c_email&utm_source=notification&utm_id=5858778&sfmc_id=257526212&utm_campaign=answer_notification
Unfortunately Ugly Hedgehog has this similar terms in the Terms of use..
"Visitor agrees as a condition of viewing, that any communication between Visitor and Website is deemed a submission. By making a submission, Visitor grants the administration and the owners of the Website a worldwide, non-exclusive, irrevocable, royalty-free, sub-licenseable and transferable license to use in any way, reproduce and distribute the submission and prepare derivative works of the submission without further permission. This includes commercial and non-commercial use of all submissions, including portions thereof, graphics contained thereon, or any of the content of the submission. Visitor agrees to only communicate that information to the Website, which it wishes to forever allow the Website to use in any manner as it sees fit. "Submissions" is also a provision of the Privacy Policy."
Does this mean Ugly Hedgehog sells your images to anyone? I don't know but it would appear they could if they wanted to, even to an AI company and you would not even know it. But understand I have no proof they do or don't.
For those who don't know what this AI stuff is about, watch this youtube video or below article.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=704brywiyfw
https://gregbenzphotography.com/photography-tips/create-ai-art-with-stable-diffusion/
Though not much into conspiracy theories myself, I do have one for this type of AI. This year I questioned PhotoFocus terms of service concerning using user images. they referred me to MightNetworks and they told me I owned my images and not to worry (lawyers disagreed and one said remove your images from the site) Mighty networks had this wording in their TOS."a nonexclusive, worldwide, royalty free, fully paid up, transferable,sublicensable (through multiple tiers), perpetual, irrevocable license to copy, display, transmit, perform, distribute, store, modify, and otherwise use Your Content" This verbiage is on a number of photo communities supposedly there for lawsuit protection..... AI uses data (images) to use in AI Focus or image creation. I wonder if those images from these communities are loaded into AI like Stable Diffusion. AI cannot make up places or images out of thin air. it can only create from what it knows, it can only understand what is available and makes changes based on what it has programmed into it. I wonder if the reason AI makes strange "mistakes" is because it purposely changes the image so it is not identical to the ones fed into the AI. "AI" then uses keywords to pull up images and put parts of these images into one image changing color and lighting and using filters. I consulted a free online attorney site about this TOS wording and they said no one should post on sites like Photofocus with this type of wording if they don't want their images used by the site for their own purpose and stated they could clearly use your images in anyway they wanted to. I have no proof this is what is happening but I would bet money this is where AI is getting it's origins image data library from, because it is getting it from somewhere. And because of the changes, AI making "mistakes" and change in lighting, people don't recognize their own images. You can search the Photofocus open forum for my post as it is still there if you want links to my answered questions and lawyers replies. Here is a link, you have to click all the more links and to see the full lawyer response "At the risk of having my answer labeled "lame", I would remove all my photos from that site immediately, and not agree to the new terms."...
https://www.avvo.com/legal-answers/a-photography-websites-new-terms-of-service----doe-5437618.html?utm_medium=b2c_email&utm_source=notification&utm_id=5858778&sfmc_id=257526212&utm_campaign=answer_notification
Unfortunately Ugly Hedgehog has this similar terms in the Terms of use..
"Visitor agrees as a condition of viewing, that any communication between Visitor and Website is deemed a submission. By making a submission, Visitor grants the administration and the owners of the Website a worldwide, non-exclusive, irrevocable, royalty-free, sub-licenseable and transferable license to use in any way, reproduce and distribute the submission and prepare derivative works of the submission without further permission. This includes commercial and non-commercial use of all submissions, including portions thereof, graphics contained thereon, or any of the content of the submission. Visitor agrees to only communicate that information to the Website, which it wishes to forever allow the Website to use in any manner as it sees fit. "Submissions" is also a provision of the Privacy Policy."
Does this mean Ugly Hedgehog sells your images to anyone? I don't know but it would appear they could if they wanted to, even to an AI company and you would not even know it. But understand I have no proof they do or don't.
For those who don't know what this AI stuff is about, watch this youtube video or below article.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=704brywiyfw
https://gregbenzphotography.com/photography-tips/create-ai-art-with-stable-diffusion/
Oct 4, 2022 15:04:16 #
spaceytracey
Loc: East Glacier Park, MT
Post photos @ your own risk. You never know what gremlins are lurking out there. Would be interested to know if UHH sells our pics. I sure hope not.
Oct 4, 2022 15:26:31 #
r1ch wrote:
Have you seen these new AI art creation and image ... (show quote)
Only Admin knows for certain.
Have you asked him for a direct answer??
Some members deface photos with “copyright” statements; l’m not sure if they have legal standing. In any case, if they see financial value in what I post, “more power to them”.
Oct 4, 2022 15:50:46 #
r1ch
Loc: Colorado
It is more complicated than that. Photofocus people had no control over what the mighty netoworks did as far as TOS. They too are photographers. So the Admin may or may not know. But they can read this post and tell us if they do. If they say they don't sell our images, I would ask why do they have a terms of use that allows them to "transferable license to use in any way, reproduce and distribute the submission and prepare derivative works"
In other words take your image modify it then sell it. The wording is so broad it covers everything. It is not necessary, you can look on other photo communities sites to see what is required.
As far as a copyright stamp on your pictures. You agreed to Terms of use, your stamp means nothing and you signed your rights away to anything you post on their site.
In other words take your image modify it then sell it. The wording is so broad it covers everything. It is not necessary, you can look on other photo communities sites to see what is required.
As far as a copyright stamp on your pictures. You agreed to Terms of use, your stamp means nothing and you signed your rights away to anything you post on their site.
Oct 4, 2022 17:42:39 #
If you are seriously concerned about theft, unauthorized or even fraudulent use of your images, simply do not post anything of importance, privacy-related, or commercial value online!
Regardless of terms of use stipulations and protective measures on your part and in your favour, how are you going to detect and enforce the integrity of your images? Remember, it's called the WORLD-WIDE WEB! And...you can bet that somewhere or some place, some folks will steal your stuff for whatever reason.
If you post your images here or on any other forum or site, you do so at your own risk. Some folks consider the Internet a free image bank. Watermarks and copyright notices may help prevent such activities but remember "locks are for honest people"!
Posting images on this and other forums is fun and can be educational- it's great to share with like-minded people in a photographic community. Just don't expect privacy or imdemnificationt against unauthorized usage. Even if the administration is perfectly honest and does not "sell" your images, there are folks out there, in the WORLD, that will just take them. Retail stores have all kinds of security, cameras, and price tags with electromagnetic coding, devices that squirt ink at would-be shoplifters, store detectives and all kinds of high-tech, yet shoplifting continues and the "srinkahge" ups the prices that we all pay!
I have been in the business of photography for over 50 years and have all kinds of protective clauses in my contracts with clients. Yet, I have found out a few unauthorized usages and illegal copies made of my work.I can tell you that legal fees are costly and court cases are nothnig but aggravation. In the few cases I mentioned, I just sent the offending parties the invoice for usage and settled for payment.
My advice: If you are a professional, part-time professional, or sell your work as fine art, do not post the stuff you sell or images that might cause issues with your commercial clients. If you do photography strictly as a hobby and are not particularly concerned about any of the aforementioned issues, you have little to worry about!
Regardless of terms of use stipulations and protective measures on your part and in your favour, how are you going to detect and enforce the integrity of your images? Remember, it's called the WORLD-WIDE WEB! And...you can bet that somewhere or some place, some folks will steal your stuff for whatever reason.
If you post your images here or on any other forum or site, you do so at your own risk. Some folks consider the Internet a free image bank. Watermarks and copyright notices may help prevent such activities but remember "locks are for honest people"!
Posting images on this and other forums is fun and can be educational- it's great to share with like-minded people in a photographic community. Just don't expect privacy or imdemnificationt against unauthorized usage. Even if the administration is perfectly honest and does not "sell" your images, there are folks out there, in the WORLD, that will just take them. Retail stores have all kinds of security, cameras, and price tags with electromagnetic coding, devices that squirt ink at would-be shoplifters, store detectives and all kinds of high-tech, yet shoplifting continues and the "srinkahge" ups the prices that we all pay!
I have been in the business of photography for over 50 years and have all kinds of protective clauses in my contracts with clients. Yet, I have found out a few unauthorized usages and illegal copies made of my work.I can tell you that legal fees are costly and court cases are nothnig but aggravation. In the few cases I mentioned, I just sent the offending parties the invoice for usage and settled for payment.
My advice: If you are a professional, part-time professional, or sell your work as fine art, do not post the stuff you sell or images that might cause issues with your commercial clients. If you do photography strictly as a hobby and are not particularly concerned about any of the aforementioned issues, you have little to worry about!
Oct 4, 2022 17:44:10 #
By displaying, any image posted is a use of your image, like it or not. This is why you have to agree to the TOS.
It is as simple as that. Selling your stuff? Why the heck for? He makes his $$$ from the advertisement, not from a measly income created by 'selling'. UHH is not the only forum the admin has.
This goes for every image posted. You agree that your image WILL BE posted to the commercial benefit of the site that hosts it, whatever it may be.
It is as simple as that. Selling your stuff? Why the heck for? He makes his $$$ from the advertisement, not from a measly income created by 'selling'. UHH is not the only forum the admin has.
This goes for every image posted. You agree that your image WILL BE posted to the commercial benefit of the site that hosts it, whatever it may be.
Oct 4, 2022 18:21:14 #
r1ch
Loc: Colorado
quoting E.L.. Shapiro in black If you are seriously concerned about theft, unauthorized or even fraudulent use of your images, simply do not post anything of importance, privacy-related, or commercial value online!
Then why do copyright laws even exist?
Regardless of terms of use stipulations and protective measures on your part and in your favour, how are you going to detect and enforce the integrity of your images? Remember, it's called the WORLD-WIDE WEB! And...you can bet that somewhere or some place, some folks will steal your stuff for whatever reason.
The difference is, if you have a website, you can seek damages or minimally have the thief remove your image from their site. If they make a product you might be able to claim damages and win. There is a copyright small claims court now which may be helpful in some cases and not require an attorney.
The difference with Ugly Hedgehog or Photofocus, you hand your images to them so they can sell them or do whatevery. I don't think this should be minimized with don't put your images on line.
If you post your images here or on any other forum or site, you do so at your own risk. Some folks consider the Internet a free image bank. Watermarks and copyright notices may help prevent such activities but remember "locks are for honest people"!
Dishonest people sometimes go to jail, or pay money. Those who force you to a TOS that allows them to sell your images seems more dishonest because you have no recourse. But equating posting images online which is a risk, to a TOS that allows them to resell your images without your knowledge is seems more devious. Many people don't even read the TOS and just click the box.
Posting images on this and other forums is fun and can be educational- it's great to share with like-minded people in a photographic community.
Which is why most people join, without reading the TOS, you give your images away
I have been in the business of photography for over 50 years and have all kinds of protective clauses in my contracts with clients. Yet, I have found out a few unauthorized usages and illegal copies made of my work.I can tell you that legal fees are costly and court cases are nothnig but aggravation. In the few cases I mentioned, I just sent the offending parties the invoice for usage and settled for payment.
You have no recourse on this site or others because like most people, they check the box without reading the TOS and give their images away.
My advice: If you are a professional, part-time professional, or sell your work as fine art, do not post the stuff you sell or images that might cause issues with your commercial clients. If you do photography strictly as a hobby and are not particularly concerned about any of the aforementioned issues, you have little to worry about!
Many of the pro photographers put their images up on a site like smug mug and sell their images of say a sports event or a school event and people buy images that way. They have recourse if companies steal their images and use them. TOS, you give your images away, often without knowing it. Just saying.
Then why do copyright laws even exist?
Regardless of terms of use stipulations and protective measures on your part and in your favour, how are you going to detect and enforce the integrity of your images? Remember, it's called the WORLD-WIDE WEB! And...you can bet that somewhere or some place, some folks will steal your stuff for whatever reason.
The difference is, if you have a website, you can seek damages or minimally have the thief remove your image from their site. If they make a product you might be able to claim damages and win. There is a copyright small claims court now which may be helpful in some cases and not require an attorney.
The difference with Ugly Hedgehog or Photofocus, you hand your images to them so they can sell them or do whatevery. I don't think this should be minimized with don't put your images on line.
If you post your images here or on any other forum or site, you do so at your own risk. Some folks consider the Internet a free image bank. Watermarks and copyright notices may help prevent such activities but remember "locks are for honest people"!
Dishonest people sometimes go to jail, or pay money. Those who force you to a TOS that allows them to sell your images seems more dishonest because you have no recourse. But equating posting images online which is a risk, to a TOS that allows them to resell your images without your knowledge is seems more devious. Many people don't even read the TOS and just click the box.
Posting images on this and other forums is fun and can be educational- it's great to share with like-minded people in a photographic community.
Which is why most people join, without reading the TOS, you give your images away
I have been in the business of photography for over 50 years and have all kinds of protective clauses in my contracts with clients. Yet, I have found out a few unauthorized usages and illegal copies made of my work.I can tell you that legal fees are costly and court cases are nothnig but aggravation. In the few cases I mentioned, I just sent the offending parties the invoice for usage and settled for payment.
You have no recourse on this site or others because like most people, they check the box without reading the TOS and give their images away.
My advice: If you are a professional, part-time professional, or sell your work as fine art, do not post the stuff you sell or images that might cause issues with your commercial clients. If you do photography strictly as a hobby and are not particularly concerned about any of the aforementioned issues, you have little to worry about!
Many of the pro photographers put their images up on a site like smug mug and sell their images of say a sports event or a school event and people buy images that way. They have recourse if companies steal their images and use them. TOS, you give your images away, often without knowing it. Just saying.
Oct 4, 2022 18:30:51 #
r1ch
Loc: Colorado
Rongnongno wrote:
By displaying, any image posted is a use of your image, like it or not. This is why you have to agree to the TOS.
It is as simple as that. Selling your stuff? Why the heck for? He makes his $$$ from the advertisement, not from a measly income created by 'selling'. UHH is not the only forum the admin has.
This goes for every image posted. You agree that your image WILL BE posted to the commercial benefit of the site that hosts it, whatever it may be.
It is as simple as that. Selling your stuff? Why the heck for? He makes his $$$ from the advertisement, not from a measly income created by 'selling'. UHH is not the only forum the admin has.
This goes for every image posted. You agree that your image WILL BE posted to the commercial benefit of the site that hosts it, whatever it may be.
Yes, you are giving your images away for them to do whatever they want. As long as you know and understand that great. But many don't read the TOS.
The point of my post is that AI requires input, what if there was good money buy a sites image liberary, It could be big money, I don't know but for sure your image would be mutated into something else and AI gets the credit.
Oct 4, 2022 18:33:03 #
r1ch wrote:
TOS, you give your images away, often without knowing it. Just saying.
We live in a world where your individual responsibility is to read and to understand and to accept the Terms Of Service. We don't live in another world, no matter how much you boo-hoo about it. You have full control over whether you post images, whether you attach (store) those files, and you control the pixel resolution of those files, if attached.
If, in October 2022, you still don't know how to resize your pixel resolution, this post was written for you:
Recommended resizing parameters for digital images
Oct 4, 2022 18:37:24 #
Oct 4, 2022 18:38:19 #
r1ch wrote:
Have you seen these new AI art creation and image ... (show quote)
You could advertise, etc to attract viewers, but there wouldn’t be any point to my doing so. The Admin does that, although some of us aren’t too thrilled with his “Canon vs Nikon” advertising. In “payment” of what he does, we allow him to make commercial use of what we post, including these comments here and our eyeballs on the ads that we mostly ignore. That is the deal here.
Oct 4, 2022 18:41:47 #
rehess wrote:
You could advertise, etc to attract viewers, but there wouldn’t be any point to my doing so. The Admin does that, although some of us aren’t too thrilled with his “Canon vs Nikon” advertising. In “payment” of what he does, we allow him to make commercial use of what we post, including these comments here and our eyeballs on the ads that we mostly ignore. That is the deal here.
You can always start your own website. You can always join "gwilliams6" FB group he touts in most every one of his posts. There are plenty of options beyond complaining.
Oct 4, 2022 18:43:53 #
r1ch
Loc: Colorado
CHG_CANON wrote:
You can always start your own website. You can always join "gwilliams6" FB group he touts in most every one of his posts. There are plenty of options beyond complaining.
It is not a complaint, it was an observation and possibly a theory. I have my own website and I quit posting in a number of communities because of TOS. Just letting others know who don't read TOS.
Oct 4, 2022 18:46:01 #
r1ch wrote:
It is not a complaint, it was an observation and possibly a theory. I have my own website and I quit posting in a number of communities because of TOS. Just letting others know who don't read TOS.
The rules exist whether you read them or not.
Oct 4, 2022 18:46:52 #
r1ch
Loc: Colorado
CHG_CANON wrote:
We live in a world where your individual responsib... (show quote)
The reason may states have laws that make people signing a contract initial certain parts is to make them aware, because just like a TOS, there are so many words and people are not lawyers they skip over it. We know it happens. Just being the initial here box.
If you want to reply, then register here. Registration is free and your account is created instantly, so you can post right away.