Ysarex Loc: St. Louis

Every so often I hear about how cell phones are starting to rival camera results and if that were to be possible at least for me the phone camera would have to save raw files which I'm told they do. (My phone flips open and makes phone calls.) So this afternoon I decided to have a look and see if I could get some sample files to examine.

A quick Google search told me to look for samples from the iPhone 13 pro and the Samsung s22. It was harder to find the S22 samples but I did. In both cases what I found were DNG files. The iPhone files were supposedly what are called Apple ProRAW format. Are there actual raw versions of Apple ProRAW because the DNGs that I got were not raw? They were linear DNGs -- RGB files in a DNG wrapper.

On to the s22 and I found what they were calling Expert RAW. They were also DNG files and not in any way raw. Like the Apple NotRAW files the s22 files were likewise linear DNGs.

I did some additional searching with queries like iPhone 13 raw format or how to save s22 raw files and I found lots of websites that used the term RAW as many times as they could stuff it in but always wound up with the two NOT RAW formats that I found with otherwise no acknowledgement that these cameras can save actual raw files.

So obviously I don't know much about smart phones. Can these high-end smart phones actually save raw files (sensor data prior to demosaicing) and if so anybody know where I can get a sample to look at?

luvmypets Loc: Born & raised Texan living in Fayetteville NC

Cameras on today's phones have made some real improvements over the phones of a few years ago. One thing to consider is that an iPhone 13's camera is only 12 megapixels and even though you can get some really good shots that will not give you the flexibility of printing large photos that your DSLR with a higher megapixel count will. (The iPhone 6 is 8 megapixels) If you can find someone that can send you a photo from the cameras you have listed, blow it up and you will see it doesn't take long before it pixelates.

Personally, I only use the phone to get photos when I don't have my camera equipment or if I'm trying to get a photo a pet that is not going to stay still long enough for me to get to the camera. I have been considering purchasing a new phone; not for the camera but for the upgrade in phone technology. I currently have an iPhone 6 and am looking at a 12. If I were to purchase the 12 I doubt the extra lenses would ever be used.

JUST MY OPINION!! Hope it helps.

Dodie

Ysarex Loc: St. Louis

12 megapixels doesn't bother me -- I can very happy with 12 megapixels as long as I can have a raw file. My bottom line; can I get a raw file?

SalvageDiver Loc: Huntington Beach CA

Apple native camera app saves in jpg, heic or ProRaw. You need a 3rd party app to save in the true raw format. I use the Moment app for this.

Both Raw and ProRaw are stored in a dng container file. But you can see the difference using RawDigger.

I've created 3 files, a heic file, a ProRaw file and a Raw file and placed them in a dropbox folder. You can retrieve the files using the link below. The ProRaw was too big to store on UHH.

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/0xcwil53y9vkm9l/AAC4jxhi5SXX_0p-ZG1uUIDua?dl=0

Hope this helps

Mike

SalvageDiver Loc: Huntington Beach CA

yes you can. Also the iphone 14 pro will have a 48mpx camera

Ysarex Loc: St. Louis

Thanks very much. So "as sold" by Apple there's no support for raw files but you can get them via a 3rd party. I'll have a look in the morning.

gvarner Loc: Central Oregon Coast

The Pro Camera app allows you to save in RAW format. Most of the new models have this built in.

dbrugger25 Loc: Raleigh, NC

I hava an Apple iPhone 13. I like the phone and the 3 lens camera. What I HATE,is the iTunes software using a Windows PC. for photo transfers into, and out of the iPhone it is, perhaps, the most awkward and annoying software I have ever used. I have some photos that I want to save to my phone's photo library and it is close to impossible.

Is this Apple's way of poking a stick in Microsoft's eye? Is there some better non-Apple software that I can use?

Ysarex Loc: St. Louis

I think that's right. From what I've read that app will save either RAW or ProRAW (which is not raw). Yesterday my attempts to find example raw files all led to ProRAW examples but this website: https://www.procamera-app.com/en/raw-photos-ios/ seems to suggest there really is an option to save a raw file as opposed to a ProRAW (not raw) file.

Now what about the s22 for non-Apple users?

dbrugger25 Loc: Raleigh, NC

I hava an Apple iPhone 13. I like the phone and the 3 lens camera. What I HATE,is the iTunes software using a Windows PC. for photo transfers into, and out of the iPhone it is, perhaps, the most awkward and annoying software I have ever used. I have some photos that I want to save to my phone's photo library and it is close to impossible.

Is this Apple's way of poking a stick in Microsoft's eye? Is there some better non-Apple software that I can use?

gvarner Loc: Central Oregon Coast

I use the Windows File Explorer to transfer my iPhone photos to my PC.

BebuLamar

Yes but you can't transfer photo from your PC to the Iphone.

bwana Loc: Bergen, Alberta, Canada

I moved from an iPhone to the Samsung S22 Ultra, primarily because I was tired of Apple's restrictions on what I could do and how to do it. I've come to love Android for its freedom!

As far as the S22 Ultra being a great camera, it is a 12 MP camera. HEIC format is more than adequate for my purposes since I have no intention of blowing up pictures off it for anything more demanding than Facebook and UHH. I did install Samsung's Camera RAW app but have only used it a couple of times and didn't see any real improvement in the pictures out of the app.

The S22, however, does an excellent job of 4K video (as well as shooting 8K video).

bwa

Ysarex Loc: St. Louis

Big help -- thanks.

I've been looking over the files you included. The raw file is really raw so at least it's possible to do. Searching the Internet on the topic of iPhone raw files again this morning has been discouraging. There's almost no recognition that the camera can save a raw file. There's just page after page of bloggers and how to articles on working with RAW files and they mean Apple (not raw) ProRAW. Comparing the real raw file with the ProRAW version you supplied is very instructive. The ProRAW file is more than just down-dirty demosaiced and stored as a linear DNG. It's also butchered by crude detail-destroying noise filtering -- actually seems worse than the HEIC file which is likewise badly noise filtered. I assume everything looks great on the phone.

That real raw file shows that the lens is good -- at 12 megapixels it's a useable image. It's pretty noisy but that has to be expected given the sensor size and your photo at ISO 200 (3 stops underexposed). The noise + good lens/good detail is preferable to the crude noise filtering in the ProRAW and HEIC files. I was surprised to find the raw file is 11 bit. I had an 11 bit camera ten years ago and it took me back -- thought we were past that but I guess it's enough in a phone camera. Given the capacity to save a real raw file I could make profitable use of the camera.

SalvageDiver Loc: Huntington Beach CA

Glad it helps.

Regarding Apples ProRaw approach, remember that their market is the masses, not the professional or extreme hobbiest. ProRaw (and HEIC) is a step up from jpg's, allowing more editing latitude, but they intentionally did not go all the way to raw. It just didn't meet their customer needs. But they did provide the api's to allow 3rd parties to fill that small market niche.