Shooting horse show in an indoor arena
Jul 16, 2022 14:27:36 #
Having taken pictures at my daughter's horse shows (english), shoot wide open, ISO is probably in the 1000-1600 range and shutter speed will be 250 and above. Best thing is to experiment on a few riders you don't know and don't care how the image comes out, that way when someone you know is riding, you'll have your settings down pat. I would shoot manual to, so the camera isn't changing settings on you. All the horse shows we've been to (and that is plenty) if there was a pro there shooting, they used strobes located high in the arena (indoors). So, to shoot without flash, you'll need all the light you can gather. When you are around the arena, at least english, the horses spook pretty easily at movement along the rail or bright colors, so keep that in mind for everyone's safety.
Jul 16, 2022 15:47:31 #
"Horse show" could be anything from some rodeo events to dressage. Lighting is likely to depend on what the arena was initially designed for. 7:00 PM may or may not be dark outside depending on where you are. Is there a chance of some natural light being mixed with the artificial light? Is there a chance you can get access to the facility ahead of time in order to see what you will have to work with?
Jul 16, 2022 16:07:12 #
amfoto1
Loc: San Jose, Calif. USA
I've been doing equestrian photography professionally for over 15 years. And have guided more than a few workshops for folks wanting to learn to shoot these events.
Dealing with indoor arenas is just part of the game.
I assume by "holy trinity" you mean something like 16-35mm f/2.8, 24-70mm f/2.8 and 70-200mm f/2.8 lenses... you will need the latter two lenses. I'd put the 24-70mm on the D850 and the 70-200mm on the D750. If you have a 1.4X available, take it to use on the 70-200mm. I make a point of shooting with APS-C (DX) cameras and often use up to 300mm when shooting lengthwise in an arena. You are using full frame (FX) cameras, so you won't have the advantage of "reach" that I do with my crop cameras.
You probably won't need the wide angle lens, but I carry one "just in case", to make an occasional wide shot of the venue or perhaps a silly shot of a horse from close up.
I always use at least two cameras and do much of my shooting with 70-200mm (112-320mm equiv.) on one and with a 300mm lens (480mm equiv.) on a second camera. I have 300mm f/4 that I can use handheld when the lighting is sufficient... but if needed I have 300mm f/2.8. It weighs 6 lb., so isn't a lens I can hand hold for more than a few minutes. So it usually goes on a tripod (with a gimbal) or at least a monopod (which leaves me more mobile). When able to do closer shots I swap the 300mm to my 24-70mm (28-112mm equiv.). In some of the "worst" lit arenas I occasionally have to resort to faster prime lenses.... 28mm f/1.8, 50mm f/1.4, 85mm f1.8 and 135mm f/2. (Note: Outdoors and in better lighting conditions, instead of the 300mm I use a 100-400mm f/4.5-5.6 lens. But it's not bright enough for enclosed arenas, but is versatile when I can use it.)
With my current cameras I'm able to use ISO 3200 without much concern... 6400 and even higher with some extra effort in post processing. I know I need a minimum of 1/500 shutter speed to have any hope of stopping action... Even that's a bit too slow though. 1/640 or 1/800 is more what I try for. At times I've used as high as ISO 12800 and 16000! Even if it's a bit noisy, I figure it's better to "get the shot" than not get it at all! I will sometimes convert to black & white if noise is an issue.
Often arenas will have strongly backlit areas. Watch out for those. If you use an auto exposure mode, it will want to underexpose and when you try to correct it in post you'll greatly amplify any noise in the image.
Also watch out for mixed lighting conditions. This can make for odd color casts. In some arenas I have to set a custom white balance to avoid ugly tints from the lighting. One arena I work a lot, I actually ask them if possible to turn off the lights (but still get some mixed lighting because of skylights in the roof that have yellowed with age). If the lights are on there, a horse can have a magenta tint on his face and a green tint on his rump! Makes for really difficult corrections in post processing.
I always shoot RAW to have the most flexibility to correct things in post processing. If for some reason I want JPEGs, I'll shoot RAW + JPEG. That fills up memory cards fast, though. Especially when you take several thousand images at an event!
You have to be a bit careful taking photos around horses. I have no problem with my APS-C cameras noise levels... even shooting bursts at 10 frames/sec. But my full frame camera's shutter noise is loud enough to cause an occasional horse to "go vertical"... not something you want to do! When in doubt, I try to carefully pre-test a horse's reaction to the shutter noise. I have used flash with horses... they tend to completely ignore it. In fact, often riders are more bothered by the flash, than their horses are! But flash doesn't work when shooting bursts of images, so I very rarely use it.
Besides the noises of your cameras, you also need to be careful not to startle horses with too quick movements or loud noises. Don't "hide" behind anything or crouch down like a predator about to pounce! Stand where the horse can see and identify you as a human being. Don't walk up behind horses... They can kick you to oblivion! Especially watch for horses that have a red ribbon tied in their tail... that's a universal warning of a horse that's prone to kicking.
Most horses are very good natured. Some even seem to have a sense of humor, like the one I caught chewing on my 24-70mm lens or another that wouldn't stop "grinning" at me (see the "portraits" below)!
I use continuous frame rate and shoot short bursts because some things are hard to time, such as the gait of a horse. I'm trying to get the horse and rider in favorable pose, so am timing for peak action such as going over a jump or around an obstacle or making a particular movement in dressage. But movement of the horse's legs is even faster and there are some positions where it just looks awkward, frozen in an image. There are also certain movements that are near impossible to photograph in a complementary way... a dressage move called a pirouette is one example that comes to mind. A photo just can't capture it well.
I use continuous focus too (AF-C in Nikon terms)... with back button focusing. I often hear other people using One Shot (Canon) or AF-S (Nikon) at events... and can guarantee that a lot of their shots will miss focus when the subjects are moving!
And with my DSLRs I almost always use a single AF point, keeping it right where I want the camera and lens to focus. Usually I put the AF point on the horse's chest since that will also put the rider's face in focus... but unless I can stop down a bit, when the subjects are closer the horse's face can be out of focus... so at closer distances I may focus on the horse's ears instead.
You didn't specify what type of horse show you'll be shooting... and that can make a difference.
- English-Western shows tend to have slower movements... a lot at a walk or trot and even some stationary posing.
- Dressage is highly organized and specific steps that are ridden in predetermined patterns. Usually they start with simpler patterns with fewer steps, then get progressively more and more complex and advanced. There also may be events with multiple horses and riders (Pas de deux), and some are ridden to music.
- Hunter-Jumper shows are generally quite active... things happen fast, but each competitor in a class will take the same route (or is supposed to), so you can have an idea where they will be going.
- Gymkhana and rodeo have a lot of high speed action around obstacles or chasing cattle or whatever. It can be pretty unpredictable, too.
- Trail Trials don't happen in arenas and cover some distance, with 6 to 10 obstacles the horses and riders need to negotiate along the way. Since I have to hike up to 10 kilometers at these events, I lighten up on the gear I carry.
Some of my favorite equestrian shows have been miniature horses and miniature donkeys! Particularly with the mini donkeys, the mistakes and "blow ups" are every bit as much appreciated as a "clean run". When everything goes wrong (sometimes with hunter-jumpers too) I'm often asked, "Did you get that? I want a print!" Other shows are a lot more "serious".
You're welcome to check out some of my stuff over on Flickr. I only have a small selection there... and some of it is there to illustrate what not to do or what doesn't work... but the following may give you some idea what to expect:
English-Western: https://www.flickr.com/photos/amfoto1/albums/72157626378755889
Dressage: https://www.flickr.com/photos/amfoto1/albums/72157627539635849
Hunter-Jumper: https://www.flickr.com/photos/amfoto1/albums/72157619801710947
Gymkhana: https://www.flickr.com/photos/amfoto1/albums/72157626503423304
Trail Trials: https://www.flickr.com/photos/amfoto1/albums/72157627847319536
Portraits (not all equestrian): https://www.flickr.com/photos/amfoto1/albums/72157631128669784
I "work the rails" of the arenas I shoot, but some may limit access in certain areas, to avoid problems. For events that are judged, I'll often set up near the judge because they have a good view of things. But don't be afraid to move around and try different angles, as best as you can safely do so. In some classes I'm actually in the arena with the participants, but you probably won't have that kind of access and probably shouldn't go there anyway, unless you know horses and the events well.
Finally, keep your head on a swivel! There are often photo ops among the spectators, interactions between people and horses or between horses with other horses. Also you need to be aware of horses around you for your own safety.
Dealing with indoor arenas is just part of the game.
I assume by "holy trinity" you mean something like 16-35mm f/2.8, 24-70mm f/2.8 and 70-200mm f/2.8 lenses... you will need the latter two lenses. I'd put the 24-70mm on the D850 and the 70-200mm on the D750. If you have a 1.4X available, take it to use on the 70-200mm. I make a point of shooting with APS-C (DX) cameras and often use up to 300mm when shooting lengthwise in an arena. You are using full frame (FX) cameras, so you won't have the advantage of "reach" that I do with my crop cameras.
You probably won't need the wide angle lens, but I carry one "just in case", to make an occasional wide shot of the venue or perhaps a silly shot of a horse from close up.
I always use at least two cameras and do much of my shooting with 70-200mm (112-320mm equiv.) on one and with a 300mm lens (480mm equiv.) on a second camera. I have 300mm f/4 that I can use handheld when the lighting is sufficient... but if needed I have 300mm f/2.8. It weighs 6 lb., so isn't a lens I can hand hold for more than a few minutes. So it usually goes on a tripod (with a gimbal) or at least a monopod (which leaves me more mobile). When able to do closer shots I swap the 300mm to my 24-70mm (28-112mm equiv.). In some of the "worst" lit arenas I occasionally have to resort to faster prime lenses.... 28mm f/1.8, 50mm f/1.4, 85mm f1.8 and 135mm f/2. (Note: Outdoors and in better lighting conditions, instead of the 300mm I use a 100-400mm f/4.5-5.6 lens. But it's not bright enough for enclosed arenas, but is versatile when I can use it.)
With my current cameras I'm able to use ISO 3200 without much concern... 6400 and even higher with some extra effort in post processing. I know I need a minimum of 1/500 shutter speed to have any hope of stopping action... Even that's a bit too slow though. 1/640 or 1/800 is more what I try for. At times I've used as high as ISO 12800 and 16000! Even if it's a bit noisy, I figure it's better to "get the shot" than not get it at all! I will sometimes convert to black & white if noise is an issue.
Often arenas will have strongly backlit areas. Watch out for those. If you use an auto exposure mode, it will want to underexpose and when you try to correct it in post you'll greatly amplify any noise in the image.
Also watch out for mixed lighting conditions. This can make for odd color casts. In some arenas I have to set a custom white balance to avoid ugly tints from the lighting. One arena I work a lot, I actually ask them if possible to turn off the lights (but still get some mixed lighting because of skylights in the roof that have yellowed with age). If the lights are on there, a horse can have a magenta tint on his face and a green tint on his rump! Makes for really difficult corrections in post processing.
I always shoot RAW to have the most flexibility to correct things in post processing. If for some reason I want JPEGs, I'll shoot RAW + JPEG. That fills up memory cards fast, though. Especially when you take several thousand images at an event!
You have to be a bit careful taking photos around horses. I have no problem with my APS-C cameras noise levels... even shooting bursts at 10 frames/sec. But my full frame camera's shutter noise is loud enough to cause an occasional horse to "go vertical"... not something you want to do! When in doubt, I try to carefully pre-test a horse's reaction to the shutter noise. I have used flash with horses... they tend to completely ignore it. In fact, often riders are more bothered by the flash, than their horses are! But flash doesn't work when shooting bursts of images, so I very rarely use it.
Besides the noises of your cameras, you also need to be careful not to startle horses with too quick movements or loud noises. Don't "hide" behind anything or crouch down like a predator about to pounce! Stand where the horse can see and identify you as a human being. Don't walk up behind horses... They can kick you to oblivion! Especially watch for horses that have a red ribbon tied in their tail... that's a universal warning of a horse that's prone to kicking.
Most horses are very good natured. Some even seem to have a sense of humor, like the one I caught chewing on my 24-70mm lens or another that wouldn't stop "grinning" at me (see the "portraits" below)!
I use continuous frame rate and shoot short bursts because some things are hard to time, such as the gait of a horse. I'm trying to get the horse and rider in favorable pose, so am timing for peak action such as going over a jump or around an obstacle or making a particular movement in dressage. But movement of the horse's legs is even faster and there are some positions where it just looks awkward, frozen in an image. There are also certain movements that are near impossible to photograph in a complementary way... a dressage move called a pirouette is one example that comes to mind. A photo just can't capture it well.
I use continuous focus too (AF-C in Nikon terms)... with back button focusing. I often hear other people using One Shot (Canon) or AF-S (Nikon) at events... and can guarantee that a lot of their shots will miss focus when the subjects are moving!
And with my DSLRs I almost always use a single AF point, keeping it right where I want the camera and lens to focus. Usually I put the AF point on the horse's chest since that will also put the rider's face in focus... but unless I can stop down a bit, when the subjects are closer the horse's face can be out of focus... so at closer distances I may focus on the horse's ears instead.
You didn't specify what type of horse show you'll be shooting... and that can make a difference.
- English-Western shows tend to have slower movements... a lot at a walk or trot and even some stationary posing.
- Dressage is highly organized and specific steps that are ridden in predetermined patterns. Usually they start with simpler patterns with fewer steps, then get progressively more and more complex and advanced. There also may be events with multiple horses and riders (Pas de deux), and some are ridden to music.
- Hunter-Jumper shows are generally quite active... things happen fast, but each competitor in a class will take the same route (or is supposed to), so you can have an idea where they will be going.
- Gymkhana and rodeo have a lot of high speed action around obstacles or chasing cattle or whatever. It can be pretty unpredictable, too.
- Trail Trials don't happen in arenas and cover some distance, with 6 to 10 obstacles the horses and riders need to negotiate along the way. Since I have to hike up to 10 kilometers at these events, I lighten up on the gear I carry.
Some of my favorite equestrian shows have been miniature horses and miniature donkeys! Particularly with the mini donkeys, the mistakes and "blow ups" are every bit as much appreciated as a "clean run". When everything goes wrong (sometimes with hunter-jumpers too) I'm often asked, "Did you get that? I want a print!" Other shows are a lot more "serious".
You're welcome to check out some of my stuff over on Flickr. I only have a small selection there... and some of it is there to illustrate what not to do or what doesn't work... but the following may give you some idea what to expect:
English-Western: https://www.flickr.com/photos/amfoto1/albums/72157626378755889
Dressage: https://www.flickr.com/photos/amfoto1/albums/72157627539635849
Hunter-Jumper: https://www.flickr.com/photos/amfoto1/albums/72157619801710947
Gymkhana: https://www.flickr.com/photos/amfoto1/albums/72157626503423304
Trail Trials: https://www.flickr.com/photos/amfoto1/albums/72157627847319536
Portraits (not all equestrian): https://www.flickr.com/photos/amfoto1/albums/72157631128669784
I "work the rails" of the arenas I shoot, but some may limit access in certain areas, to avoid problems. For events that are judged, I'll often set up near the judge because they have a good view of things. But don't be afraid to move around and try different angles, as best as you can safely do so. In some classes I'm actually in the arena with the participants, but you probably won't have that kind of access and probably shouldn't go there anyway, unless you know horses and the events well.
Finally, keep your head on a swivel! There are often photo ops among the spectators, interactions between people and horses or between horses with other horses. Also you need to be aware of horses around you for your own safety.
Jul 16, 2022 17:44:56 #
therwol
Loc: USA
amfoto1 wrote:
I make a point of shooting with APS-C (DX) cameras and often use up to 300mm when shooting lengthwise in an arena. You are using full frame (FX) cameras, so you won't have the advantage of "reach" that I do with my crop cameras.
The OP mentioned having a Z50, which is a crop frame camera. There was no mention of the FTZ adaptor for the lenses mentioned, but let's assume there is one. Does this change your recommendations?
I'll make two comments.
1. The D850, while not the fastest camera in the world in terms of frame rate, has lots and lots of megapixels, so cropping to attain the "reach" of a DX camera is feasible.
2. The Z50 gives you a choice of electronic or mechanical shutter. The electronic shutter suffers from significant rolling shutter at high shutter speeds, so the mechanical shutter should be used unless you want to chance some wonky looking horse legs if they're moving fast.
Jul 17, 2022 01:58:43 #
You have all been most helpful. Thank you for all of the hints. I am looking forward to trying this out. Thanks again everyone.
Jul 18, 2022 23:43:29 #
amfoto1
Loc: San Jose, Calif. USA
therwol wrote:
The OP mentioned having a Z50, which is a crop frame camera...Does this change your recommendations?
All the focal lengths I cited were what I use on APS-C cameras. But they are the longest lenses the OP says they have... regardless what camera they use them on. Yes, if they have an FTZ adapter and could use the Z50 with its DX format, that might be ideal.
therwol wrote:
...The D850, while not the fastest camera in the world in terms of frame rate, has lots and lots of megapixels, so cropping to attain the "reach" of a DX camera is feasible....
Cropped to APS-C format, the D850's 46MP will be reduced to around 20MP. That's pretty close to the same as the Z50's 21MP... so when it comes to image quality it's sort of a toss up which would be better to use.
therwol wrote:
...The Z50 gives you a choice of electronic or mechanical shutter. The electronic shutter suffers from significant rolling shutter at high shutter speeds, so the mechanical shutter should be used unless you want to chance some wonky looking horse legs if they're moving fast...
I agree that the Z50's electronic shutter would be very risky... likely to cause problems due to the rolling shutter effect (google it if interested).
Safer to just use the mechanical shutter.
I am not personally familiar with the Z50, so cannot say which of the two would be the better choice.
Jul 21, 2022 15:35:01 #
I again want to thank all of you for your great advice. I was able to get some pretty amazing photos for myself. After reading the rules from the venue I was not able to use the D850 with a long lens. But I was very happy with the results with the Z50. I wish I could share a couple of my favorite photos but unfortunately the venue will not allow me to share on social media. The great part though was that I was able to successfully incorporate a lot of what was shared here and again appreciate those of you who shared your knowledge with me.
Jul 25, 2022 13:20:47 #
CliffMcKenzie wrote:
Shooting rodeo is tuff due to low light and dust. My choice is D850 with 70-200mm 2.8. Here is the key: Open the aperture wide open (2.8), speed 1,000 and ISO (ready for this) 12,800 (yes, she can handle it). Also if permitted, use a monopod with feet. Tack sharp images - See Rodeo Practice https://flic.kr/s/aHBqjzEYXt.
Your rodeo practice pictures are quite impressive. Thank you for sharing these. And sorry I didn't directly reply to this sooner. Very impressive. I would never have attempted that high of an ISO.
Jul 25, 2022 14:07:42 #
amfoto1 wrote:
I've been doing equestrian photography professiona... (show quote)
I went through all of the photos of different venues. These were very helpful. Plus you gave me great ideas for more candid photos which I really enjoyed. My favorite was the one looking over the back of the saddle to the horses head. I would never have thought of anything like that but it is really a great capture. Thank you.
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