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Composition question
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Jul 5, 2022 13:24:51   #
Equus Loc: Puget Sound
 
I do like this crop a little better, although both are excellent.

Remember that judging a photo show is highly subjective. It is largely what the judge likes or dislikes. When going through several hundred (or thousand) images judges do a quick scan of what they don't like first (usually). Then they look at the remaining images to pick and choose. While they can give reasons for what they like or don't like it is still subjective: what looks good to their eye.

I spent years riding dressage. I never had a big beautiful imported warmblood that the judges drool over. I had a back yard horse that was cute but definitely not what the judges were going for. Over the years I noticed that some judges would mark the back yard horse down or they didn't like certain breeds. It is just the way it is when you compete in a subjective environment.

Your pictures are excellent.

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Jul 5, 2022 13:30:15   #
koratcat
 
Another contender. My eye wanted the yellow and the bird's beak down near the lower right third of the image. The crop

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Jul 5, 2022 13:35:14   #
koratcat
 
Oops--didn't realize I couldn't attach photo with quick reply.

Was going to add that the crop also avoids the diagonals coming directly from the corner and still keeps the interplay between the bird and the reflection.



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Jul 5, 2022 13:40:23   #
cbtsam Loc: Monkton, MD
 
murphle wrote:
Ah.... So it's ok to come from the quadrant, but not have a line coming from the corner. I can't use the one from the show because a) it's not mine and b) for some reason, it won't let me retrieve the full image, just a poorly cropped version for the virtual show....

I will use a pic of mine as an example. Please if you could recommend a crop that would be appropriate so I understand and stop sending in stuff from the corner:) Thank you all for your patience and help.


I think that, to a great extent, it depends on what it is a picture of. I think for many, this is an image of da boidy and da reflection, all else being rather extraneous. In that case, some cropping might be very useful to keep my eye from wandering to all the other interesting details in the image: the geometry of the sticks and their reflections, and the little circles of ripples under da boidy and off to the middle right of the frame and three or four more circular impressions, out of focus, along the upper part of the frame. But I personally would miss all that geometry surrounding da boidy in such a crop.

Ahh, de gustibus non disputandum est.

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Jul 5, 2022 13:42:21   #
TheShoe Loc: Lacey, WA
 
CHG_CANON wrote:
Life is like photography, it's easy until you start following all the rules explained on the internet.


Trying to do that is like playing Calvinball.

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Jul 5, 2022 13:43:02   #
issa2006.
 
You might be able to pp the heavy part of the stem to be a little shorter and let the bent part be the leading line which is a little softer. I think it is a lovely photo and especially the reflection.

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Jul 5, 2022 13:45:27   #
Equus Loc: Puget Sound
 
the other one was much better

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Jul 5, 2022 14:10:47   #
Soul Dr. Loc: Beautiful Shenandoah Valley
 
Strodav wrote:
Unless you are a professional selling photos to make a living, the most important thing is that you like your images. To hell with everyone else, especially judges who almost always have their own biases. Take photos you like, and if someone else likes them, great. If not, don't worry about it. Remember, there is an exception to every "rule" of composition, which tells you there are no rules.

My feelings exactly. I take photos of what I find interesting and PP to my liking. If people like them, fine, if not that is fine too. Not everyone sees things the same way.
My feelings about rules in photography is they are made to be broken.

Will

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Jul 5, 2022 14:12:23   #
CHG_CANON Loc: the Windy City
 
Photography is not a sport. It doesn't have a governing body that sets the rules. In fact, there are no rules for good photographs, and great photographs have just one: the photoshop work is exquisite.

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Jul 5, 2022 14:51:43   #
mmills79 Loc: NJ
 
Linda From Maine wrote:
For me this particular photo shouldn't be cropped. If you take any from the left, the bird will be crowded. From the right side, you'll lose the cool angled reed. Definitely not from the bottom or you'll cut part of the bird's reflection.

The upper left corner has a reed coming from exactly where the edges of the frame intersect. It would be helpful to understand the reasoning behind "don't do it" - such as, does that sometimes cut the image in half? Like a horizon line can, so that you don't know what the focal point is: sky or land? For this particular photo, I find it's a great place to start the eye exploring all the lines and angles. This is a dynamic and appealing portrait of a bird in its natural surroundings.

Other opinions will vary, no doubt
For me this particular photo shouldn't be cropped.... (show quote)


Food for thought.. I agree I like the picture overall. That said, I would crop it from the top, even at the expense of cutting off the tail slightly. It centers the picture better for me and my eye goes more directly to the bird and just as importantly, to the reflection. I was musing what the bird might be thinking, looking at itself? That is the interesting thing for me in this photo. I think it is a really nice picture if framed just a little bit better.

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Jul 5, 2022 15:20:28   #
bkwaters
 
E.L.. Shapiro wrote:
All this negativity about judges, rules, camera clubs, competitions, and all the rest is ridiculous and somewaht childish.

These so-called "rules". guidelines, suggestions. or whatever euphemisms you want to use, are not laws that are enforced and carry penalties- so any of y'all can do whatever you want as to composition, exposure, or anything else.

Seriously folks we are all human beings and not everyone learns and functions the same way, Some peop are gifted with artistic talent and have a built-in, inborn sense of design, placement and therefore composition. Other folks have some talent that needs development the need some basic concepts to refine their technique. There are perfectly good folks who have absolutely no artistic learning but are capable of learning certain concepts by formula, can carry out instructions and produce decent images. And...there are folks who nothing and couldn't give a rat's tail about composition or anything else but nonetheless like to enjoy camera and photography for whatever purpose.

Judges and critics are also human beings, each with their own talents, tastes, prejudices and abilities to teach, encourage, and help others- OR NOT! Some can do all of this positively and articulate their thoughts in such a way, as to positive and negative aspects of any image, and leave the submitter with encouragement and enhanced knowledge, Others, unfortunately, may be good photograhers but when judging ac like frustrated drill instructors- and the is every kind of personality in between. So, if you enter a competition or submit yo work for critique, you need to be prepared for whatever comes your way and be able to separate the wheat from the chaff!

Competition rules are put in place to provide judges and submitters with the judging criteria. Differet clubs, organizations and professional associations have different criteria. If you don't like what organizations stand for or promote- don't go there! If you want to confirm or excel within a particular genre, choose your organization accordingly. If you are a "free spirit" and find a group or competition to traditional, stodgy, or whatever- find a different group! Even within a group in which to be compatible, when it comes to competitions, "if you can't take a punch, don't enter the ring"!

Sadly, there s a lot of "sour grapes". Some folks get a bad reading of their images and blame the judges or the entire concept of judging criteria or "rules". Maybe they were improperly or unfairly judged, MAYBE their submission was generally lousy! Sore losers or bad sportsmanship? Perhaps!

When I first start out as a professional in photography, my first boss and mentor forced me to enter my prints into competitions. Surprisingly enough, a few of my prints made it to the resulting exhibition but the majority were scored poorly. I attended open judging where the panel used prints for "punching bags" but I learned quickly how to improve my work. On the other hand, some of my other mentors, the more experienced shooters athte studio, told me to NOT only "shoot for the judges" but to develop my own style. After a while, you create a balance. My point is if you do photography as a hobby, and/or art for your own satisfaction, there is nobody FORCING you to enter competitions or conform to anything! As a kid, I enjoyed the competitions and always attend the judgings- I considered it free FREE SCHOOL!
All this negativity about judges, rules, camera cl... (show quote)


I don’t disagree with any of your above points. In this particular case the judge should have said that the strong geometric shapes made by the bright reed coming out from the corner distracts from the main subject, the bird. As shown in one of the above posts, when a photo is about graphic elements, a line emerging from a corner can be a positive. I agree with the OP that citing a rule without an explanation was not helpful.

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Jul 5, 2022 17:48:20   #
User ID
 
There absolutely cannot possibly rules of composition. Composition is descriptive, bot proscriptive. A recipe is proscriptive.

The judge in question says you did not use his proscribed recipe. His dislike of nuts in his brownies only becomes your problem if you want it or allow it to be.

Apparently theres a recipe for blue ribbons. Whaz the value of a ribbon to you ? The admiration of club members who can read recipes ?

Various members describe their work as "award winning". Thaz laffable. The only photographic competition I ever won turned out to be worth about a million dollars. I dont laff at that.

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Jul 5, 2022 17:58:09   #
dustie Loc: Nose to the grindstone
 
murphle wrote:
Ah.... So it's ok to come from the quadrant, but not have a line coming from the corner. I can't use the one from the show because a) it's not mine and b) for some reason, it won't let me retrieve the full image, just a poorly cropped version for the virtual show....

I will use a pic of mine as an example. Please if you could recommend a crop that would be appropriate so I understand and stop sending in stuff from the corner:) Thank you all for your patience and help.


(Official Disclaimer --- I am only a hick with limited "photo-ing" experience, and no expertise in any manipulating of photog certification ratings.)
How I see it through this dustie pane:

The one "rule" that seems to remain persistently consistent is:
******* It Depends *******

The various and incessantly conflicting rules, opinions, guidelines, tips and tricks, methods, must have (not have)/ must do (not do) biases associated with enjoy-the-pasttime-photography seem to all eventually end up back at one singular, unavoidable common denominator -- ******* It Depends *******
The criteria --the variously vaporous varieties of variables and combinations of disputable "fact" and fiction-- upon which "It Depends" are based, probably number in the thousands, or more. A multiple choice smorgasboard of personal preferences and inflexible dislikes which each shutter presser, image viewer, critiquer and each photography enthusiast, from vaunted expert to insecure beginner, picks through and selects bits and chunks based on:
"I like it",
"I don't like it",
"Expert X teaches it",
"Expert Y ridicules it",
"Expert Z forbids it",
and various and sundry other whims and marketing influences aimed at something in particular or nothing in general.

(End of Official Disclaimer)

------------------------------------

Personally, I like your photo just as you show it here. The corner-entry of the stalk does not detract nor pull me out of the frame. It leads down to the intersection being punctuated by the bird's beak.
(That's not to say that others with more advanced and refined and skilfully-honed photo-ing experience and qualification can't show my appreciation of your work to be nothing more than the unrefined ahhhhhhh of a dustie hick.)

---------------------

If you don't mind, (and my apologies if I'm out of line), I have two pics that will probably offensively "break" multiple "rules".
This is not an effort to offend any who know much more than I, and maybe know more than I'll ever know. I had no idea that these pics are rulebreakers.......because I did not know there are "rules" against what they show.





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Jul 5, 2022 18:04:48   #
dustie Loc: Nose to the grindstone
 
dbrugger25 wrote:
I wouldn't change a thing. The arrangement of the rippled water and reed sticks make the entire photo enticing.



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Jul 5, 2022 18:06:12   #
dustie Loc: Nose to the grindstone
 
FreddB wrote:
If someone can’t find the subject in this picture - “All roads lead to Rome” - there’s not much hope for them.



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