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Too much automation?
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Feb 25, 2022 19:28:36   #
mikegreenwald Loc: Illinois
 
burkphoto wrote:
There is no such device as a "Mirrorless Reflex" camera. Reflex refers to a re-direction of image forming light to divert it through a viewfinder. The number of lenses involved is beside the point that a mirror (or mirror and pentaprism or pentamirror) are involved.

Digital Single Lens Mirrorless (DSLM) camera is the term used by Panasonic and Olympus in 2008 when they created the first examples.

Mirrorless Interchangeable Lens Camera (MILC) is the more commonly used term that has evolved in the industry to describe a body and system of optional lenses.

A few folks who don't read closely translate that as MILF, much to their chagrin and embarrassment when told what THAT means!
There is no such device as a "Mirrorless Refl... (show quote)


Some of us old guys are kind of slow to pick up on the new stuff. I still think of the MILCs as reflexes, because they look like and externally operate much like the SLRs and DSLRs.
I'll try harder. 😊

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Feb 25, 2022 19:58:26   #
Gene51 Loc: Yonkers, NY, now in LSD (LowerSlowerDelaware)
 
larryepage wrote:
There are a small number of situations that require manual focus and/or manual exposure control. Other choices just won't work. For others, I use whatever makes the process easiest and whatever carries the greatest probability of success. (It's surprising how often what provides one also provides the other.) But again...there is no substitute for understanding exactly how you are getting to the destination...regardless of the process.


Couldn't agree more! Automation can come in handy. I usually shoot manual exposure, spotmeter, fixed ISO, unless I am in a setting where the light is changing a lot, then autoISO with exposure comp, focus tracking set to track longer, good for when trying to follow a bird that is flying in and out of trees, etc. Landscapes I use full manual everything, including focus.

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Feb 25, 2022 21:56:21   #
E.L.. Shapiro Loc: Ottawa, Ontario Canada
 
As I mentioned previously, I am not anti-automation in cameras and accessories. I too will use whatever features are at my disposal to get the job done, and every job doe not requr exactly the same approach. My observation is that it is in the automation, in and of itself, that diminishes understanding of the process but perhaps does not actually know exactly how to apply the automation or even exactly how to use them.

I am not worried about the placement of any button or control dial on a camera. Much of that is in the domain of engineers and industrial designers. Each photographer should choose cameras that are ergonomically compatible with abilities and dexterity. ideally, accessing and deploying any of the controls or features needs to become almost second nature. If an add-on accessory becomes too much of a tedious procedure to operate, you need the weigh the advantages against the distraction. Over time, on this forum, I have seen so many "I can't get this THING to work" kida questions so, assuming the photographer knows what they're doing, I can't imagine how some of these THINGS are practical in many picture-taking, especially where speed and spontaneity are important. It's like the person who buys a complex computer system to increase the efficiency in his business and end up spending more time dealing with a computer than doing the work manually.

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Feb 25, 2022 22:08:17   #
larryepage Loc: North Texas area
 
E.L.. Shapiro wrote:
As I mentioned previously, I am not anti-automation in cameras and accessories. I too will use whatever features are at my disposal to get the job done, and every job doe not requr exactly the same approach. My observation is that it is in the automation, in and of itself, that diminishes understanding of the process but perhaps does not actually know exactly how to apply the automation or even exactly how to use them.

I am not worried about the placement of any button or control dial on a camera. Much of that is in the domain of engineers and industrial designers. Each photographer should choose cameras that are ergonomically compatible with abilities and dexterity. ideally, accessing and deploying any of the controls or features needs to become almost second nature. If an add-on accessory becomes too much of a tedious procedure to operate, you need the weigh the advantages against the distraction. Over time, on this forum, I have seen so many "I can't get this THING to work" kida questions so, assuming the photographer knows what they're doing, I can't imagine how some of these THINGS are practical in many picture-taking, especially where speed and spontaneity are important. It's like the person who buys a complex computer system to increase the efficiency in his business and end up spending more time dealing with a computer than doing the work manually.
As I mentioned previously, I am not anti-automatio... (show quote)


Ed--I'll let Gene speak for himself, but I think you and I are in violent agreement.

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Feb 25, 2022 22:48:02   #
E.L.. Shapiro Loc: Ottawa, Ontario Canada
 
larryepage wrote:
Ed--I'll let Gene speak for himself, but I think you and I are in violent agreement.


???????????????????????????

I just received this entire thread and I can see any disagreement let alone a "violent argument"! Where did this come from!

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Feb 25, 2022 22:50:14   #
larryepage Loc: North Texas area
 
E.L.. Shapiro wrote:
???????????????????????????

I just received this entire thread and I can see any disagreement let alone a "violent argument"! Where did this come from!


Please read again. I think we are in tight agreement, not argument.

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Feb 25, 2022 22:59:41   #
E.L.. Shapiro Loc: Ottawa, Ontario Canada
 
larryepage wrote:
Please read again. I think we are in tight agreement, not an argument.


Sorry. "Violent". Is just a bad adjective for me. Makes my PTSD kick in! I am a peaceful guy. I need a vacation. Too much screen time!

Be well!

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Feb 26, 2022 11:28:14   #
BebuLamar
 
E.L.. Shapiro wrote:
Sorry. "Violent". Is just a bad adjective for me. Makes my PTSD kick in! I am a peaceful guy. I need a vacation. Too much screen time!

Be well!


For me it's not too much automation but the automation available on cameras that we have today not exactly what I would like for automation so I ended up not using a lot of them. Your observation that a number of people who have problem when they use automation that is because they use them without understanding how the automation is supposed to work.

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Feb 28, 2022 09:22:41   #
Abo
 
E.L.. Shapiro wrote:
Each of us has our unique ways of participating and enjoying this forum. My particular kinda fun is helping folks with certain technical and aesthetic problems or issues that they are encountering in their applied photograhy. When I log in, I scan through the topics and try to find questions in areas where I can provide advice or suggestions. Frequently, I find folks trying to untangle what seems a complex problem with one of the many advanced and automated features in their cameras and/or flash equipment. Oftentimes, the answer is somewhere in the instruction manual that came along with the equipmet in question. Oftentimes again, the OP is admonished for not reading the manual or consulting Google. Sometimes the solution is a simple flip of a switch, a particular menu setting, or a small oversight on the part of the photograher. Many other times it is actually an unnecessarily complex situation of one feature cancelling out another, incompatible accessories, or an instruction manual that seems to be written some kind of linguistic code. The comprehensive manuals that accompanied someof my cameras are "thicker" than the one languishing in the glove box of my car.

The solution to the issue can be a time-consuming, complicated procedure that makes me wonder if the photographer will have any time or energy left to make photographs. I can see going through a lengthy procedure when photographing a static subject under controlled conditions, however, so many folks shoot wildlife, sports, and more animated subjects- how can they get spontaneous images with all that fussing about just to get automation to work?

I am not intimately familiar with all the latest and greatest mirrorless wonder-cameras. My question to the aficionados of these machines is, if desired, can they be switched onto MANUAL mode and enable settings strictly independent of any and all automatic systems?

I have observed that many problems arise in flash usage. It's not enough that the camera has a virtual onboard computer. The photograher mounts yet another "computer" on the hot shoe to control the flash system. At that point, nothing seems to operat properly if at all. Perhaps the entire falsh system was not purchased intact and piecemealing a system after the fact can be problematic. The question is usually something like " my ABC flash is not working with my XYZ triggering system on my QRX Camera- WHY??? More confusion ensues wehn the same gear is marked under different brand names.

Now, I am an old guy with a grey beard but I am not anti-automation- I too love my "gadgets" but more in the kitchen than in my studio. I don't pine fort he passed and old equipment and material that is long gone, however, I am reminded of someof my "old school" methods will still apply. There was a trend back in the late 1950s and 60s in wedding photography to shoot stereo slides on Kodachrome 25. That film had very little latitude. At first, we shot with flashbulbs and later on with electronic flash. We shot fast candid shots, needed to retain detail in white gowns and black tuxedos and texture in white weddg cakes. I shot with multiple flashes and learned how to control ratios. We learned to estimate distances and manually set apertures. We learn to compensate for large and small rooms and use flash fill out-of-doors. it was not "rocket science".
Modern digial equipmet is fantanstic. There are great built-in metering systems, TTL flas operation, and more but how much more complexities do we need and wehn does it get to the point where mastering all the electronics, overtakes the artistry and spontaneity?

What do y'all think?
Each of us has our unique ways of participating an... (show quote)


Well said.

I used a Nikon FM manual film camera... manual focus too.

The viewfinder had the split image feature which meant
manual focusing was more often than not as fast as and
always as accurate as the fastest automated systems.

Once the film was loaded and the ASA (ISO in todays language)
was set to match the film, all you had to do was
centre the light meter (in the view finder) with aperture
or shutter speed and press the shutter release.

That was it.


This moving target; Ayrton Senna piloting a Honda McLaren at
warp factor 9 in the rain and low light while I was perched
in a eucalypt tree, over the track, was shot with the old
Nikon FM using Kodacolor 35mm negative film... easy peasy lemon squeezy.

While in the (huge) lead Ayrton Senna DNFed after crashing into the back of a car he was lapping... that was invisible in the mist/water thrown up..
While in  the (huge) lead Ayrton Senna DNFed after...
(Download)

Alessandro Nannini piloted his Benneton Ford very well indeed that day... finishing 2nd behind Thierry Boutson in his Renault
Alessandro Nannini piloted his Benneton Ford very ...
(Download)

Ayrton Senna, the second best driver ever... and very sadly missed RIP Ayrton.
Ayrton Senna, the second best driver ever... and v...
(Download)

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Feb 28, 2022 11:54:37   #
joecichjr Loc: Chicago S. Suburbs, Illinois, USA
 
Abo wrote:
Well said.

I used a Nikon FM manual film camera... manual focus too.

The viewfinder had the split image feature which meant
manual focusing was more often than not as fast as and
always as accurate as the fastest automated systems.

Once the film was loaded and the ASA (ISO in todays language)
was set to match the film, all you had to do was
centre the light meter (in the view finder) with aperture
or shutter speed and press the shutter release.

That was it.


This moving target; Ayrton Senna piloting a Honda McLaren at
warp factor 9 in the rain and low light while I was perched
in a eucalypt tree, over the track, was shot with the old
Nikon FM using Kodacolor 35mm negative film... easy peasy lemon squeezy.
Well said. br br I used a Nikon FM manual film ca... (show quote)


I love 'em

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Feb 28, 2022 12:40:04   #
Abo
 
joecichjr wrote:
I love 'em


Groovy baby!

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