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The Focal Plane Error
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Oct 14, 2021 15:28:22   #
Gene51 Loc: Yonkers, NY, now in LSD (LowerSlowerDelaware)
 
IDguy wrote:
Most of us understand that a lens can focus on only one distance at a time. The multiple “focus points” shown on many cameras represent the distance measurements that the camera is using to determine what distance to focus at…which may not be any of the points. That misleads some photographers and contributes to some complaints about focus with some cameras or lenses. The issues are usually caused by the user.

But there is another point I can’t find any references to. There actually is no such thing as a focal PLANE. There is a focal distance. That distance represents a sphere around the camera. It isn’t flat. Knowing this can help set up some shots, like groups, especially if using narrow DOF (low fstop). You should curve your line to keep the distance to the camera the same.

Comments invited.
Most of us understand that a lens can focus on onl... (show quote)


Focal plane usually refers to the place that the lens focuses it's image projection inside the camera. It used to be the film plane, but now it's the sensor plane.

However, your thoughts on focus distance are somewhat correct - for a simple uncorrected lens, yes, its a sphere. But most complex lenses used in modern cameras are somewhat corrected for field curvature and can focus to the center of the field as well (or nearly as well) as the edges and corners. Of course, using a wide aperture will reveal flaws in design, and using smaller apertures will hide them - thanks to the differences in depth of field.

Some lens designs are highly corrected to have a flat field - macros and lenses used to copy flat subjects have very little focus difference from center to edge.

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Oct 14, 2021 15:39:10   #
DirtFarmer Loc: Escaped from the NYC area, back to MA
 
IDguy wrote:
Most of us understand that a lens can focus on only one distance at a time. The multiple “focus points” shown on many cameras represent the distance measurements that the camera is using to determine what distance to focus at…which may not be any of the points. That misleads some photographers and contributes to some complaints about focus with some cameras or lenses. The issues are usually caused by the user.

But there is another point I can’t find any references to. There actually is no such thing as a focal PLANE. There is a focal distance. That distance represents a sphere around the camera. It isn’t flat. Knowing this can help set up some shots, like groups, especially if using narrow DOF (low fstop). You should curve your line to keep the distance to the camera the same.

Comments invited.
Most of us understand that a lens can focus on onl... (show quote)


A lens focuses a point in front of the lens at a point behind the lens. It could work the other way also. Think about the image on the sensor projecting out into the world. A point on the sensor will be focused at a point somewhere in front of the lens.

The design of the lens has a lot to do with the relationship between the point on the sensor and the point out in the world. Assuming the sensor is flat, most people consider that the array of points in focus out in the world would also be flat. But The relationship between the point on the sensor and the point out in the world may depend on the angle from the perpendicular from the sensor out to the world. It is possible that a plane sensor would result in a curved surface out in the world containing the points in focus. Looking at it the other way, a plane (flat) surface out in the world might focus onto a surface at the sensor that is not flat.

One of the challenges in designing lenses is to make the focal surface as close as possible to a plane (flat surface) on both sides of the lens. I am not a lens designer but I suspect that that challenge is most difficult with wide angle lenses.

Since the sensor is flat, most lenses give an image that is in focus from a plane surface in front of the camera. This is an approximation and the surface containing the in-focus points is probably not perfectly flat, but is most likely close enough to flat for all practical purposes. There could be exceptions for ultrawide lenses. At any rate, there is no real reason why the in-focus surface is spherical, mainly because the sensor is not spherical.

Took me a while to type this so Gene51 beat me to it.

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Oct 14, 2021 15:41:29   #
Longshadow Loc: Audubon, PA, United States
 
rlscholl wrote:
A plane, by definition, is not curved. Rather it is a flat surface defined by any three points not in a line. The focal distance reference is to a portion of a spherical surface equidistant from a point.


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Oct 14, 2021 15:50:57   #
Longshadow Loc: Audubon, PA, United States
 
Last I knew a plane was a flat surface.

The fact that one has multiple "focus points" in an image, those points are simply identifying multiple planes of focus, either in front of or behind other points (planes). Think of them as focusing "layers".

A focal plane is simply a plane through a focal point.

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Oct 14, 2021 15:52:01   #
brontodon
 
IDguy wrote:
You are confusing terms.


Which terms am I confusing?

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Oct 14, 2021 16:06:10   #
Longshadow Loc: Audubon, PA, United States
 
JD750 wrote:
Yep that’s right, it’s a sphere not a plane. However given a small angle on the sphere it is approximately flat so I guess that’s where “focus plane” comes from. Maybe we should change the term to focus sphere? I’m certainly willing to do that.

And flash lighting works the same way. A given constant exposure value forms a sphere at some distance from the flash. But it’s not omnidirectional for a conventional speed light as they tend to be focused into a narrower beam.


Re-defining physics to one's understanding of it and terms used, correct or not?
That'll ad a bit of ambiguity.

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Oct 14, 2021 17:08:50   #
IDguy Loc: Idaho
 
Orphoto wrote:
Not so fast. The lens does have front and back focal planes. The back plane is located at the sensor/film.


Yes, but that is not what this discussion is about.

And what you are thinking is actually in the camera, not the lens. It is the sensor plane, which some also call the focal plane. It gets confused with the focus distance.

Here is an example confusing the use of focal plane: https://mastinlabs.com/blogs/photoism/understanding-focal-plane-in-photography

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Oct 14, 2021 17:12:37   #
IDguy Loc: Idaho
 
DirtFarmer wrote:
....

Since the sensor is flat, most lenses give an image that is in focus from a plane surface in front of the camera. This is an approximation and the surface containing the in-focus points is probably not perfectly flat, but is most likely close enough to flat for all practical purposes. There could be exceptions for ultrawide lenses. At any rate, there is no real reason why the in-focus surface is spherical, mainly because the sensor is not spherical.

Took me a while to type this so Gene51 beat me to it.
.... br br Since the sensor is flat, most lenses ... (show quote)


The real reason, which I described in the opening, is that a sphere represents equal distance from the camera and thus sensor.

A spherical sensor would be a black hole.

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Oct 14, 2021 17:18:54   #
IDguy Loc: Idaho
 
Gene51 wrote:
Focal plane usually refers to the place that the lens focuses it's image projection inside the camera. It used to be the film plane, but now it's the sensor plane.

However, your thoughts on focus distance are somewhat correct - for a simple uncorrected lens, yes, its a sphere. But most complex lenses used in modern cameras are somewhat corrected for field curvature and can focus to the center of the field as well (or nearly as well) as the edges and corners. Of course, using a wide aperture will reveal flaws in design, and using smaller apertures will hide them - thanks to the differences in depth of field.

Some lens designs are highly corrected to have a flat field - macros and lenses used to copy flat subjects have very little focus difference from center to edge.
Focal plane usually refers to the place that the l... (show quote)


Image correction is for distortion. It can't fix focus. The lens has one focal distance at a time.

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Oct 14, 2021 17:26:36   #
IDguy Loc: Idaho
 
Gene51 wrote:
Focal plane usually refers to the place that the lens focuses it's image projection inside the camera. It used to be the film plane, but now it's the sensor plane.

However, your thoughts on focus distance are somewhat correct - for a simple uncorrected lens, yes, its a sphere. But most complex lenses used in modern cameras are somewhat corrected for field curvature and can focus to the center of the field as well (or nearly as well) as the edges and corners. Of course, using a wide aperture will reveal flaws in design, and using smaller apertures will hide them - thanks to the differences in depth of field.

Some lens designs are highly corrected to have a flat field - macros and lenses used to copy flat subjects have very little focus difference from center to edge.
Focal plane usually refers to the place that the l... (show quote)


That is the correct use. But not what is commonly used. e.g. : https://mastinlabs.com/blogs/photoism/understanding-focal-plane-in-photography

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Oct 14, 2021 17:34:26   #
Longshadow Loc: Audubon, PA, United States
 
Longshadow wrote:
Last I knew a plane was a flat surface.

The fact that one has multiple "focus points" in an image, those points are simply identifying multiple planes of focus, either in front of or behind other points (planes). Think of them as focusing "layers".

A focal plane is simply a plane through a focal point.


Addendum:
And each of the planes are parallel to each other.

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Oct 14, 2021 17:38:37   #
Longshadow Loc: Audubon, PA, United States
 
IDguy wrote:
That is the correct use. But not what is commonly used. e.g. : https://mastinlabs.com/blogs/photoism/understanding-focal-plane-in-photography


The plane in which the image is PRIMARILY focused, <at> the focal point.
Depth of field is the area AROUND (in front and back) of the focal plane that is also in focus.

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Oct 14, 2021 20:17:21   #
JD750 Loc: SoCal
 
crphoto8 wrote:
A plane can be curved which is what you referred as focal distance.


Definition:
In mathematics, a plane is a flat, two-dimensional surface that extends infinitely far.
Source: wikipedia Plane_(geometry)

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Oct 14, 2021 20:24:14   #
IDguy Loc: Idaho
 
Longshadow wrote:

The plane in which the image is PRIMARILY focused, <at> the focal point.
Depth of field is the area AROUND (in front and back) of the focal plane that is also in focus.


Yes, we know that. Your point relative to this thread?

Once again noting DOF is actually the distance in front of and behind the sphere (not plane) of focus which is the point of this thread.

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Oct 14, 2021 20:29:59   #
Longshadow Loc: Audubon, PA, United States
 
IDguy wrote:
Yes, we know that. Your point relative to this thread?

Once again noting DOF is actually the distance in front of and behind the sphere (not plane) of focus which is the point of this thread.

Just stating it a different way....

Sphere???

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