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Ethics of postprocessing
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Sep 21, 2021 10:17:59   #
SuperflyTNT Loc: Manassas VA
 
Dan5000 wrote:
Why is this so important to you? Just curious.


I have no problem with what anybody wants to do with their photos. The thing that gets me are the people like him that think there’s some kind of superiority and purity in their SOOC images. There isn’t.

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Sep 21, 2021 10:30:29   #
User ID
 
SuperflyTNT wrote:
While his work would certainly benefit from some post processing it would do nothing to improve his weak composition.

There’s no critiquing his “composition”. It’s exempt from that topic. His pix are verrrry clearly dedicated to a consistent theme, not concerned with aesthetics.

There’s a certain school of photography, of which he’s a tenured professor and department chairman, in which subject and composition are by the boards.

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Sep 21, 2021 10:31:09   #
billnikon Loc: Pennsylvania/Ohio/Florida/Maui/Oregon/Vermont
 
User ID wrote:
Neither reproduces anything.



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Sep 21, 2021 10:43:30   #
User ID
 
Bill_de wrote:
The first sentence was clear and to the point. For that reason there was no reason for a reply, and certainly not 11 pages.

But this is UHH. If the OP did not want responses there was no reason for the original post in the first place. It's not like it revealed any secrets. We're in it for some fun and to kill time during commercials. ---

Yup.
.


(Download)

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Sep 21, 2021 10:54:22   #
User ID
 
cahale wrote:
The only thing interesting about this discussion is whether anyone got the first sentence. Did you?

There’s nothing to “get”. Don’t go spraining your shoulder over an old bumper sticker joke.

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Sep 21, 2021 10:58:02   #
User ID
 
jburlinson wrote:
If they're both "reality" why do they look so different?

Or are you saying that there are two (and maybe more) realities: one at 1/2000 sec. and another at 1/2 second?

And if that's the case, how about a third reality -- one where you shove the "vibrance" slider all the way to the right in Lightroom?


Think about what you wrote.

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Sep 21, 2021 11:04:03   #
Charles 46277 Loc: Fulton County, KY
 
Gene51 wrote:
The only ethical concern regarding post processing is when an image needs to record/represent reality - there are only a few situations where this is a hard requirement - and most who post here needn't be concerned.

The majority of photographers should be concerned about a properly exposed/cropped/spotted image. In the old days post processing was used to achieve this - and today it should be no different. Dodging and burning is almost as old as photography itself. Even Ansel Adams made reference to it when he wrote “Dodging and burning are steps to take care of mistakes God made in establishing tonal relationships.”

Post processing is taking a great image and turning it into a memorable work of art. There is no ethical concern there, other than the result should be expertly executed. There are far to many wannabes who thing that pushing the saturation and contrast sliders to 100% is artful. It is usually awful.

Your thesis is one of many. Mine is that post processing is whatever manipulation is necessary to make a visually pleasing and postively impactful image.

Should I have been ethical and not postprocessed the image below?
The only ethical concern regarding post processing... (show quote)


Doing what brings pleasure is not the point in a court of law--in your pictures, the spots on the wall are unpleasant, and there was nothing unethical about deleting the spots. But if the picture is of a murder scene, for court, and the spots on the wall are blood spatter, the truth is more important than a pretty picture. The motive for actions determines whether they are ethical... deleting the spots or adding more spots would be a prison offense, while making them sharper would not be.

I read of a judge who said pictures taken with wide angle lenses are not admissible--he had heard they distort things! (And in some cases the lens used might be used to mislead about how far away things are...) But of course a wide angle shot showing the accused was in the room at a certain time should be perfectly admissible. It shows what is relevant. (If you make a larger print and see it closer-up, maybe 3 or 4 inches, any apparent wide angle effect vanishes and relative distances look normal.)

Some sad people conclude from such phenomena that there is no real truth, and all is opinion--or PhotoShop. No media can be trusted because some are deceivers. Plato's Cave Myth or Descartes Deceiving Demon would be: Everything can be PhottoShopped by deceivers. So how do we know everything is not PhotoShopped--nothing is true or real, nothing can be known? No picture can be trusted. (Can an oil painting be trusted? Yes, if we have reason to believe the witnesses. But it is one thing to say the Mona Lisa looks just like her, and another thing to say Van Gogh's Summer Sunflowers look just like them--they do and they don't.) Myth can also tell a truth with untrue statements.

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Sep 21, 2021 11:06:46   #
User ID
 
DirtFarmer wrote:
When I started this thread my intent was to generate discussion on postprocessing, since there are two main camps: for and against (with a lot of sub-branches).

It was not my intent to label people in either camp as wrong. I don't believe that is warranted nor effective. I'm all for people stating their opinion on the subject but what I would like to see is reasons why you hold the opinion you do.

Many of the responses above are centered on reality. "Reality" is often presented as the reason for one view or the other on the subject. Reality is subjective. Everyone sees it differently. If our eyes and brain cannot fully grasp reality, what chance does the camera have? On the same basis, what chance does postprocessing have?

I am not a commercial photographer. I have only sold one set of photographs in my recollection (a real estate set for a friend). My main purposes for taking photographs are: (1) documentation; (2) enjoyment. Documentation covers a lot of things, like showing the condition or state of something at a given time, making a photographic copy of something that I want to preserve or distribute, recording scenes that I would like to remember in the future (scenery or family). Enjoyment includes taking photos of things I like the look of, or things that I can use as a challenge to process to meet my recollection of something, or things that I can transmogrify to make a joke. When I try to edit my photos, reality is what my memory says it is.
When I started this thread my intent was to genera... (show quote)

Your intention ... ??? Reeeeeally ?!?!?

Your intention is perfectly clear. Read the thread title. Who wrote that title ?

Sorrrrrrrrry dude. You’re not innocent. You provoked the “who’s right and who’s wrong” question.

You could’ve asked for discussion of PP but instead you asked for a discussion of ETHICS !!! You did it. Don’t play naive.

Anywho ... sincerely ... thanks for the entertainment.

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Sep 21, 2021 11:11:14   #
Delderby Loc: Derby UK
 
mwsilvers wrote:
Since the human eye has a much greater dynamic range than any camera's sensor, using PP tools to brighten and bring more detail out of darker shadow areas results in images much closer to reality then the images as captured. This is one of the issues I have with people who suggest that the only valid images are those straight out of the camera. Straight out of the camera images rarely look even
close to what we actually saw with our own eyes.


That may be so with YOUR camera. Mine is adjusted to produce something very close to reality.

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Sep 21, 2021 11:11:34   #
billnikon Loc: Pennsylvania/Ohio/Florida/Maui/Oregon/Vermont
 
DirtFarmer wrote:
There are 10 groups of people in the world. Those who use binary notation and those who don't. In photography, there is a difference of opinion on postprocessing.

Recent threads (and lots of past threads) expose the dichotomy of opinion on postprocessing. "Photoshop is lying". "Photographs are art".

There are reasons for both opinions, but the reasons do not overlap much. I'm in the "art" group and I will let everyone know that my photos are processed, sometimes just a bit, sometimes a lot. It's the difference between a pleasing photo and photojournalism, which eschews changes to the "original" image, whatever that is.

I would like to support the "art" group with an example from a recent wedding I attended. I have a photo that was taken by someone else (since I was in the wedding party I did not take any photos of the ceremony). I am presenting the photo to illustrate a point: it is my opinion that wedding photos are NOT photojournalism (unless there's some unusual newsworthy aspect of the wedding, which does not apply here). Wedding photos are to please the family. I don't have permission of everyone in the photo to post this so I have blurred all the faces, but I think my point can be seen here.

The original photo was taken as the bride and groom (now husband and wife) walked down the aisle away from the officiant. The wedding was outdoors on a sunny day, late in the afternoon. The photo shows most of the family so it is of interest to the family. Since it was late in the afternoon, some trees behind the photographer shaded half of the group. So the original photo shows a bunch of bright faces on the right and dim faces on the left. In my opinion this detracts from the value of the photo to the family (particularly those on the left).

I ran the photo through Photoshop and brightened the faces on the left. I only had a jpg to work with so the dynamic range wasn't really great, but I got something that I believe is better than the original as far as the left group is concerned. The left group is not as bright as the right, but they are not heavily shaded as much as they were.

My version is not reality if you only consider the response of the camera sensor to the available illumination.

My version is reality if you consider that the human eye can adapt to differences in illumination much better than a print of a photo can realize.

My thesis is that Postprocessing, even relatively heavy processing that Photoshop can produce, is a way to approximate the reality of a photo.
There are 10 groups of people in the world. Those ... (show quote)


Those that hate postprocessing and complain about it are afraid to try it because for them it is too steep a learning curve and there of the sour grapes crowd. ie. You know about the fox that couldn't reach the high ripe grapes, he said, "Oh, there probably sour anyway", and walked away.
Those that love postprocessing are blessed.

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Sep 21, 2021 11:13:00   #
Delderby Loc: Derby UK
 
Ethics of the Unethical?

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Sep 21, 2021 11:22:41   #
User ID
 
Delderby wrote:
That may be so with YOUR camera. Mine is adjusted to produce something very close to reality.

Acoarst one man’s “very close to reality” is another man’s barely adequate casual record. You’re favorably impressed with your camera’s direct output. Maybe that veil will be lifted, maybe not.

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Sep 21, 2021 11:23:07   #
CHG_CANON Loc: the Windy City
 
Reading other people's success stories should give you the inspiration and the hope and the confidence that you too can learn PhotoShop.

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Sep 21, 2021 11:27:22   #
Charles 46277 Loc: Fulton County, KY
 
User ID wrote:
Sorrrrrrrrry dude. You’re not innocent. You provoked the “who’s right and who’s wrong” question.

You could’ve asked for discussion of PP but instead you asked for a discussion of ETHICS !!! You did it. Don’t play naive.


The idea that ethics is not important in photography is nonsense. One of my college students in Federal Prison was there 5 years for violating lawful ethical practice in photography (copyright). So much of what we do can be done either honestly or dishonestly. A picture of someone taken against their will for money is honest in journalism, but not in advertising a product. We can't always say what makes it wrong, but we usually know it when we see it. Where people disagree, it may take a court case and a jury to decide. Kodak had a good case that they never violated Polaroid's patent, but a court determined they did (the billion dollar damages were paid in cash on the spot), but anyway the technology was soon worthless to both of them.

Discussing ethics here may or may not accomplish anything--if it is just chat where people are not interested in what is right or true, it is just chewing gum for the mind.

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Sep 21, 2021 11:34:17   #
Charles 46277 Loc: Fulton County, KY
 
Delderby wrote:
That may be so with YOUR camera. Mine is adjusted to produce something very close to reality.


If your pictures are realistic, how come a picture of a mouse does not interest a cat?

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