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Does this make me a bad photographer?
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Jan 3, 2022 14:24:09   #
CHG_CANON Loc: the Windy City
 
E.L.. Shapiro wrote:
This is a thread that is 5-months old but is still worth a comment.

Common y'all stop psychoanalyzing the teacher and calling him an egotist- you probably don't even know who he is or what he does. The teacher is paid to present a course and tell you what HE or SHE knows and HOW they work and HOW THEY pref to compose, light and process their images. If the STUDENT admires the teacher's work, takes in the class, learns a few important elements, the teacher has done their job.

The "job" if you will, of the student, is to take all the methodologies and techniques he or she has gathered and integrate them into their working methods, perhaps keep some of the principles in the back of their minds, and apply them when THEY feel it is necessary. Over the years, I have attended many masterclasses and seminars where someof the teachers agreed on certain approaches and other were diametrically opposite on certain points. You do not drop every you are doing and become a clone of the teacher. To benefit, all you need to do is consider the lessons and the critiques and interact the improvements gradually as you feel they are necessary and truly beneficial.

I have presented many classes and seminars on a professional level. I have to put together a program and design a curriculum as to how I approach and actually do things- MY WAY! This is because most students or attendees want some definitive solutions and answers to questions. I can't accept their time and money and just tell them to go home and experiment. I am, however, very emphatic in explaining that I am furnishing them with some basic guidelines and tools that will work and none of the "rules" as to style and composition are carved in stone. I encourage them to use them as starting points or back up methds in a difficult situation but to further experiment, change, and revise things as they progress.

If the OP is still reading into this thread, here's my advice. Do not discard what you have learned from your class and use what you have gleaned when you feel it is applicable and appropriate. Do not discard what you did before the class and what comes to you naturally. If you are specializing in wildlife photograhy, you oftentimes need to react and shoot quickly and spontaneously so don't slow down the process by hesitating and trying to measure off 1/3 segments of your frame. If you have time, perhaps with a more static subject, you may wish to apply a new method or two. If you like the results, with practice it will become more reflexive.

When demonstrating any technique or method of lighting, a teacher needs some criteria or recognizable points of observation. So, if a certain direction or shape of a shadow in the facial structure of an animal or person- or certain highlights in the eyes, etc, is pointed out, these are just indicators or "landmarks" of the ideal kind of lighting the teacher is trying to describe. Remember, you are not performing surgery where if you make the incision in the wrong place yo will kill the patient! If you come upon a great shot of a wild animal in direct sunlight, you can't wait around for the late afternoon setting sun. You can't invite a mother mountain lion and her cubs back for a reshoot- you grab the shot regardless of the time of day and get the heck out of there!

The images you posted are beautiful. The show has great texture and detail and most importantly, your love of animals! That is what most viewers of wildlife and even editors like to see.

By the way, it is not uncommon for students and attendees, even seasoned pros, to attend a class and become overwhelmed. Sometimes we all get information overload and need time to digest and apply what we are learning. It is like gettg vaccinations- it might sting at first, cause an unpleasant reaction, but in the long run, it is beneficial.

Many moons ago, I took my very first advanced classes in professional portraiture at the Winnona School of Professional Photograhy. My first instructor used a dozen lights- I counted them 12!!!!!- Yes, he was a grandmaster and his work was outstanding. The second week, my instruction of equal talent and experience used no more than 2 umbrella-equipped lights. On the third week cam, the "New Trends" course and the instructor said the two previous guys were crazy and he did every with natural light. When I came back to work, my first boss and mentor was eager to find out what I had learned. My first reaction was that "I should have stayed at home and watched TV"! It took a few days but once I started shooting again all it began to make more sense and everything I learned came in handy.
This is a thread that is 5-months old but is still... (show quote)


After 5 months, is it really worth a comment?

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Jan 3, 2022 14:49:35   #
cambriaman Loc: Central CA Coast
 
You are doing very well. Remember as someone posted earlier in this thread, "he's the expert and you are the amateur seeking comment. He would be very, very embarrassed if he couldn't make some negative comments.

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Jan 3, 2022 16:38:53   #
Bobspez Loc: Southern NJ, USA
 
I only read the first few of the 29 pages. I think the teacher did exactly what you paid him to do, critique your pictures and give all the advice he knew of on how to improve them. As a pro he is probably using professional standards. For example, would this photo be published by National Geographic? As nice as your photos are, the answer would probably be no. In the professional art world there's a difference between very good and perfect and perfect is what people expect.

I was watching a 1997 Las Vegas Bee Gees concert with my wife and as an amateur musician I marveled that every single note they sang, every pause, every breath, every harmony, every stage movement was perfectly executed. I could never reach that level of perfection and all the training in the world couldn't get me there. I'm perfectly happy to be just an amateur doing what I enjoy, but I would never mistake my work for anything near artistic brilliance.

Here are award winning nature photos for 2020 that seem to exhibit the qualities and lack of faults that your instructor was teaching. The attached award winning photo seems to satisfy all his requirements. You can only do your best. Photography should be enjoyable. If you don't want criticism, don't ask for it. I don't.

https://www.worldnaturephotographyawards.com/winners-2020

Photolady2014 wrote:
Morning all! So I just got through taking a 5 day class with a very well known photographer who has won many, many awards, photos in the Smithsonian and is a judge for contests like Natures Best Photography. I learned sooo much about what makes a great photo.

Half way through the 5 days I was feeling quite overwhelmed and almost in tears because to get the photo that he would consider a photo seems near impossible. I totally understand photos before and just after sunrise and sunset are the best, but is it awful that I still want to take photos mid day? On several of my trips I have still gotten photos I really like, even though they do not have the special light and there are shadows etc. I scoured my photos and submitted them for the class and so far I do not have one photo that is not a "non-photo" due to shadow or lack of a hook or a background that is not totally creamy, or a host of other bad things.

I will post some of his comments to what I thought was going to be an ok photo.

The last one was reviewed verbally, the shadows! Bridge of the nose by eye, and the light patch of fur below the right eye as you look at the photo and curve shadow back to the nose is a big distraction. He could tell I was off by 2 degrees and that caused the bad shadow. The lighter fur to the left of the nose stops the eye from traveling from the lower left to the eye. You are supposed to have something soft in the lower left that makes your eye travel from lower left to the "hook" eye. In this case it does not work due to light fur interrupts the flow to the eye and then the shadows on the right. Then, the white fur on the lips could have been lightened to make it better if the other issues had not condemned it to be a "non-photo". Oh and the green line going through the background is bad.

Who knew you were not supposed to have sky in a bird photo, or that with something like a coyote all 4 legs must have separation and no crossover and that the farthest away front leg should be going forward. That the background must be very creamy with no light and dark areas. Shadows are the worst! Like crap, I was off by 2 or 4 degrees with the shadow. Must have a hook, no lines and of course good light, no messy sticks. Example an owl in a tree is bad if the leaves are all around it.

Anyway, I feel like a bad person/photographer for still liking some of my photos that are not perfect and still wanting to just have fun taking a photo and if I see a mom and baby moose at noon in a messy field of grass with a shadow, I'm still going to take the photo!

Again, I learned a LOT and the pro is a very nice guy and very talented. I will try and do what he says, but may still take what I know will be a "non-photo" am I bad?

Comments welcome, I have had lots of criticism lately, I can handle it! Well I might cry....
Morning all! So I just got through taking a 5 day... (show quote)


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Jan 3, 2022 21:31:28   #
Photolady2014 Loc: Southwest Colorado
 
Bobspez wrote:
I only read the first few of the 29 pages. I think the teacher did exactly what you paid him to do, critique your pictures and give all the advice he knew of on how to improve them. As a pro he is probably using professional standards. For example, would this photo be published by National Geographic? As nice as your photos are, the answer would probably be no. In the professional art world there's a difference between very good and perfect and perfect is what people expect.

I was watching a 1997 Las Vegas Bee Gees concert with my wife and as an amateur musician I marveled that every single note they sang, every pause, every breath, every harmony, every stage movement was perfectly executed. I could never reach that level of perfection and all the training in the world couldn't get me there. I'm perfectly happy to be just an amateur doing what I enjoy, but I would never mistake my work for anything near artistic brilliance.

Here are award winning nature photos for 2020 that seem to exhibit the qualities and lack of faults that your instructor was teaching. The attached award winning photo seems to satisfy all his requirements. You can only do your best. Photography should be enjoyable. If you don't want criticism, don't ask for it. I don't.

https://www.worldnaturephotographyawards.com/winners-2020
I only read the first few of the 29 pages. I think... (show quote)


Again, I did not mind the critique, I wanted to know if I was bad for still wanting to take a photo even if it did not have the award winning background etc! Even if I knew when I took the photo it was not perfect. I was fine with the critique…

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Jan 3, 2022 22:03:38   #
Bobspez Loc: Southern NJ, USA
 
Photolady2014 wrote:
Again, I did not mind the critique, I wanted to know if I was bad for still wanting to take a photo even if it did not have the award winning background etc! Even if I knew when I took the photo it was not perfect. I was fine with the critique…
I'm willing to bet that almost all award winning photos are cropped and tweaked in post. Sometimes you spray and pray and get a great shot. With wildlife they may be here and gone in a few seconds. Sometimes great lighting and composition is just there, often it's not.

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Jan 3, 2022 22:25:47   #
E.L.. Shapiro Loc: Ottawa, Ontario Canada
 
CHG_CANON wrote:
After 5 months, is it really worth a comment?


There is a plethora of current stuff on this forum that is not worth any comment and some of the comments on perfectly intelligent and valid threads and timely and significant questions attract many frivolous and inane comments.

There is some folk who seem to take pleasure in making negative remarks about long posts or threads, the old threads being revived, redundant subjects, or implying that posters are stupid for not reading the manual or researching their question on Google. If a post or thread is of no interest to you or anyone else, why not ignore those and go onto something else's or simply take the time to be helpful.

As a person who has presented many seminars, trained many new photographers, it bothers me when folks knock teachers that they don't even know and call them egotistical and infringing negative. A good teacher does not have to make negative critiques simply to feed his or her ego- just honest ones will do just fine. A good teach doesn't have to give attaboy or attagirl on poorly crafted work. Honest criticism needs to be e accompanied by encouragement not browbeating and discouragement.

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Jan 3, 2022 22:35:07   #
KenProspero
 
Photolady2014 wrote:
Again, I did not mind the critique, I wanted to know if I was bad for still wanting to take a photo even if it did not have the award winning background etc! Even if I knew when I took the photo it was not perfect. I was fine with the critique…


You know -- though the person who gave the criticism was .... let's say .... inartful. I think it may actually have been a compliment. When you look at what he says -- he is making small technical points -- the kind of thing that might help you turn a great picture into a perfect picture, or that one professional would say to another. They weren't the kind of comments that one would make when someone submitted a terrible shot (or even a mediocre one).

They really are beautiful pictures.

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Jan 4, 2022 01:44:00   #
RodeoMan Loc: St Joseph, Missouri
 
GerryER wrote:
He did the best he could with the equipment he had!


Don't we all? lol

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Jan 4, 2022 02:36:30   #
JeffDavidson Loc: Originally Detroit Now Los Angeles
 
To start with, I would be proud of your photos. Secondly, if you are not making a living off of your photos, and you enjoy them and they give you pleasure, then they are worthwhile. Improvement can be rewarding but only if it gives you satisfaction and fulfillment.
Keep up the good work, enjoy what you have done, practice and try to learn what helps to make a better photo. BUT, remember, there is a great deal of subjectivity in photography. I happen to like bright rich colors. Other on UHH prefer B&W. That does not make either of us right or wrong. We each have different preferences, likes and dislikes.

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Jan 4, 2022 02:54:21   #
Wallen Loc: Middle Earth
 
jburlinson wrote:
Why no PP?

Is this a moral judgment? Aesthetic?

Is this a test of one's abilities of some sort? Are you saying that if you can't get a perfect exposure, then forget it? If so, you seem to be siding with the vilified teacher of this long, long thread.


I believe that many vilify PP because, IMHO, they confuse Post-processing with Editing, more so Manipulation, and do not understand that in digital cameras, JPEG SOOC is (generally), the only the final image we can see Straight-Out-Of the-Camera.
We can not see a RAW file, as a final photo to appreciate and share. To see it as such, RAW is always interpreted/processed, depending on the "present" settings of the reader. Even when chimping straight from the camera, RAW is processed according to the embedded settings to be viewed.
To share it, those settings are locked by saving the RAW as a different filetype.

My take on these matters are defined here: https://www.uglyhedgehog.com/t-619848-1.html

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Jan 4, 2022 09:30:53   #
BigDaddy Loc: Pittsburgh, PA
 
Bobspez wrote:

Here are award winning nature photos for 2020 that seem to exhibit the qualities and lack of faults that your instructor was teaching. The attached award winning photo seems to satisfy all his requirements. You can only do your best. Photography should be enjoyable. If you don't want criticism, don't ask for it. I don't.

https://www.worldnaturephotographyawards.com/winners-2020

While this photo may have won awards, it's proof that beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Yes, it's OK but would never have received my vote,depending of course on the competition. I've seen hundreds if not thousands of wildlife photo's on the hog that *I* like more. I bet if you posted this picture on one of the critique forums you would get a bunch of constructive and maybe even destructive criticism.

There are unlimited possibilities in photography and not likely everyone will agree on the best, or any, combination. It's the nature of the beast.

As most people noted, including the OP, the instructor gave her his thoughts which she paid for. She simply let a bit of criticism influence her happiness more than it should have.

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Jan 4, 2022 11:54:46   #
Bobspez Loc: Southern NJ, USA
 
BigDaddy wrote:
While this photo may have won awards, it's proof that beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Yes, it's OK but would never have received my vote,depending of course on the competition. I've seen hundreds if not thousands of wildlife photo's on the hog that *I* like more. I bet if you posted this picture on one of the critique forums you would get a bunch of constructive and maybe even destructive criticism.

There are unlimited possibilities in photography and not likely everyone will agree on the best, or any, combination. It's the nature of the beast.

As most people noted, including the OP, the instructor gave her his thoughts which she paid for. She simply let a bit of criticism influence her happiness more than it should have.
While this photo may have won awards, it's proof t... (show quote)


I agree with all you said. It just seemed to me that the award winning photo I posted satisfied all of the teacher's criteria in regard to lighting, shadows, background, framing and interest which was in the OP's original post. And I noticed that a recent photo the OP posted of a hornbill seemed to satisfy that criteria as well.

Of course beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Van Gogh was judged a failure and never sold a single canvas in his lifetime. The Beatles were rejected by a major record label just before they became a worldewide phenomena. One man's trash is another man's treasure.

I stopped posting pictures for critique a long time ago. I was gratified though when the only poster on UHH that liked the attached pic that I thought was quite good was a professional photographer.


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