Ugly Hedgehog - Photography Forum
Home Active Topics Newest Pictures Search Login Register
General Chit-Chat (non-photography talk)
Zap-Cap for whole house protection?
Page <prev 2 of 3 next>
Apr 11, 2021 04:27:32   #
Wallen Loc: Middle Earth
 
Longshadow wrote:
If it's anything like a "Zeus" that gets put on the breaker box feed...
A Zeus is a dual gas discharge tube that goes across leg A and leg B of your power line, to common.
If surge or spike greater than about 400 volts comes down either leg of the the power line the gas tube lights, discharging the surge. It is a surge/spike protector. Because the Zeus triggers at 400V you still need a smaller ones at the computer/electronics devices. NOTHING will protect your house from a direct lightning strike on your power feed. Absolutely nothing! Lightning hitting a tree will blow the tree apart - from the expansion of the steam created when the moisture in the tree boils, in an instant.

I was talking to the guy that installed one in my house in Florida, about lightning and the Zeus. (We had a master feed box outside, where the Zeus was installed.) He state that he did replace one on a house that got hit by lightning,... he found little pieces of the Zeus all over the yard. I don't remember what he said about what happened to the rest of the house though. Lightning hitting a tree will blow the tree apart - from the expansion of the steam created when the moisture in the tree boils, in an instant.

One time a lightning spike came down the phone line, lost a phone and a modem on that one (heard the characteristic SNAP). Once down the TV cable, lost the cable box and a VCR on that one.

It's more protection than nothing, but not a savior.
If it's anything like a "Zeus" that gets... (show quote)


Correct. The only way to protect a system from lightning is to sacrifice destruction of a component or have something that a lighting would rather hit. Hence the lightning rods.

Reply
Apr 11, 2021 08:03:04   #
Longshadow Loc: Audubon, PA, United States
 
Wallen wrote:
Correct. The only way to protect a system from lightning is to sacrifice destruction of a component or have something that a lighting would rather hit. Hence the lightning rods.

The purpose of the lightning rods is to bleed off any static charge on the building into the air so there is not a huge charge differential between it and the clouds, not to attract lightning.
But if that can't happen in a timely manner, the rods are grounded, so hopefully the lightning goes to ground through them instead of the building.

Reply
Apr 11, 2021 10:49:17   #
TriX Loc: Raleigh, NC
 
Longshadow wrote:
The purpose of the lightning rods is to bleed off any static charge on the building into the air so there is not a huge charge differential between it and the clouds, not to attract lightning.
But if that can't happen in a timely manner, the rods are grounded, so hopefully the lightning goes to ground through them instead of the building.


Yep, there is a huge amount of energy in a lightning strike. In fact, many hams and commercial installations thermite weld the ground wire or braid to the grounding rod to prevent any resistance (a lightning hit would melt solder).

I have had two near hits by lightning - one on a sailboat, and one in the transmitting “shack” of a UHF TV station. When you feel the hair start to stand up on your body, you are very near possible death! Current thinking that I’m aware of is the best strategy is not to lie down but Instead squat down making the lowest possible profile with your feet together. If you lie on the ground the potential difference in the earth from one end of your body to the other can be enough to kill you. Texas has the most lightning strikes (maybe because it is so large?), but Florida is high up on the list.

Reply
 
 
Apr 11, 2021 11:00:37   #
Longshadow Loc: Audubon, PA, United States
 
TriX wrote:
Yep, there is a huge amount of energy in a lightning strike. In fact, many hams and commercial installations thermite weld the ground wire or braid to the grounding rod to prevent any resistance (a lightning hit would melt solder).

I have had two near hits by lightning - one on a sailboat, and one in the transmitting “shack” of a UHF TV station. When you feel the hair start to stand up on your body, you are very near possible death! Current thinking that I’m aware of is the best strategy is not to lie down but Instead squat down making the lowest possible profile with your feet together. If you lie on the ground the potential difference in the earth from one end of your body to the other can be enough to kill you. Texas has the most lightning strikes (maybe because it is so large?), but Florida is high up on the list.
Yep, there is a huge amount of energy in a lightni... (show quote)

Yup, "ball up on the ground" if you feel your hair start to rise.

Reply
Apr 11, 2021 23:28:24   #
Wallen Loc: Middle Earth
 
Longshadow wrote:
The purpose of the lightning rods is to bleed off any static charge on the building into the air so there is not a huge charge differential between it and the clouds, not to attract lightning.
But if that can't happen in a timely manner, the rods are grounded, so hopefully the lightning goes to ground through them instead of the building.


It is the discharge of static differential in the atmosphere (air to air) or between the atmosphere & the ground (air to ground) that causes lighting. Lightning rods can't prevent or control that. It just provide an easier path for the discharge if the lightning use the building to equalize.
Static dischargers on an airplane are the ones discharging potential difference into the air.
Lighting rods are directly grounded to the earth so they discharge to the ground, not to the air.

Reply
Apr 11, 2021 23:37:17   #
TriX Loc: Raleigh, NC
 
Wallen wrote:
It is the discharge of static differential in the atmosphere (air to air) or between the atmosphere & the ground (air to ground) that causes lighting. Lightning rods can't prevent or control that. It just provide an easier path for the discharge if the lightning use the building to equalize.
Static dischargers on an airplane are the ones discharging potential difference into the air.
Lighting rods are directly grounded to the earth so they discharge to the ground, not to the air.


Here’s a piece of trivia. Most lightning strikes are ground to cloud, rather than cloud to ground. This has actually been studied in Florida. If you understand that the earth is negative with respect to the cloud and understand current flow is from negative (an excess of electrons) to positive, then this seems perfectly reasonable.

Reply
Apr 11, 2021 23:59:22   #
Wallen Loc: Middle Earth
 
TriX wrote:
Here’s a piece of trivia. Most lightning strikes are ground to cloud, rather than cloud to ground. This has actually been studied in Florida. If you understand that the earth is negative with respect to the cloud and understand current flow is from negative (an excess of electrons) to positive, then this seems perfectly reasonable.


The potential difference and equalization can happen anywhere hence there is air to air lighting and also the spark from the fingers to stuff we touch. From what i know, Air-Ground strikes are more studied but Air-Air events happens more frequently.

As for the lightning going from ground to air, that is the actual electron flow. Electrons travel from the negative to the positive. We are just accustomed to the positive to negative idea and is still taught as the conventional current flow. Hence the term "discharge" aforementioned refers to the current flow which is positive to negative.

Lightning is a complex process and the actual flowing of electrons happens near the end of the process. Before electricity can flow, it first has to have something to flow on. They call that a leader. The leader can go either or both directions into or opposite each other to produce the conductive path. - ground to air, air to ground, air to air etc.

Reply
 
 
Apr 12, 2021 07:02:33   #
Longshadow Loc: Audubon, PA, United States
 
Wallen wrote:
It is the discharge of static differential in the atmosphere (air to air) or between the atmosphere & the ground (air to ground) that causes lighting. Lightning rods can't prevent or control that. It just provide an easier path for the discharge if the lightning use the building to equalize.
Static dischargers on an airplane are the ones discharging potential difference into the air.
Lighting rods are directly grounded to the earth so they discharge to the ground, not to the air.

Lightning rods help bleed off any charge buildup, hopefully reducing the chance of a strike.
In the event of a strike, they are intended to carry the discharge instead of the building/object they are protecting.
I'd say that's a preventive measure.

Reply
Apr 12, 2021 07:28:14   #
hj Loc: Florida
 
hj wrote:
Can anyone educate me on the Zap-Cap which supposedly protects the whole house from lightning strikes, power surges etc. I though I'd read you still have to use in house surge protectors, so what's the purpose of the Zap-Cap?


Interesting how we got away from the original inquiry about surge protection for the house to the scientific studies of how lighting and electrical charges in the atmosphere work. Back to Zapcap and Zeus and any other devices intended to protect the house's electrical grid. Do they work and are they cost effective or is it better to use good quality surge protection devices in the house to protect electronics such as TV, computer etc.?

Reply
Apr 12, 2021 07:39:39   #
Longshadow Loc: Audubon, PA, United States
 
hj wrote:
Interesting how we got away from the original inquiry about surge protection for the house to the scientific studies of how lighting and electrical charges in the atmosphere work. Back to Zapcap and Zeus and any other devices intended to protect the house's electrical grid. Do they work and are they cost effective or is it better to use good quality surge protection devices in the house to protect electronics such as TV, computer etc.?

Always, most every thread, human nature...

But the Zap-Cap is also regarding power spikes due to nearby lightning strikes (not a direct hit).........
The ARE very related.

Reply
Apr 12, 2021 07:43:14   #
Longshadow Loc: Audubon, PA, United States
 
Wallen wrote:
It is the discharge of static differential in the atmosphere (air to air) or between the atmosphere & the ground (air to ground) that causes lighting. Lightning rods can't prevent or control that. It just provide an easier path for the discharge if the lightning use the building to equalize.
Static dischargers on an airplane are the ones discharging potential difference into the air.
Lighting rods are directly grounded to the earth so they discharge to the ground, not to the air.


Took a white, but finally found it...
Static charges bleed off pointed objects much faster than round objects (like the top ball on a Van de Graaff generator to save the static charge.)

https://physics.stackexchange.com/questions/65825/does-a-lightning-rod-prevent-lightning-strikes

Reply
 
 
Apr 12, 2021 10:21:14   #
TriX Loc: Raleigh, NC
 
Wallen wrote:
The potential difference and equalization can happen anywhere hence there is air to air lighting and also the spark from the fingers to stuff we touch. From what i know, Air-Ground strikes are more studied but Air-Air events happens more frequently.

As for the lightning going from ground to air, that is the actual electron flow. Electrons travel from the negative to the positive. We are just accustomed to the positive to negative idea and is still taught as the conventional current flow. Hence the term "discharge" aforementioned refers to the current flow which is positive to negative.

Lightning is a complex process and the actual flowing of electrons happens near the end of the process. Before electricity can flow, it first has to have something to flow on. They call that a leader. The leader can go either or both directions into or opposite each other to produce the conductive path. - ground to air, air to ground, air to air etc.
The potential difference and equalization can happ... (show quote)


Indeed, an actual lightning strike is a complex process. For those interested in more detail: https://www.nssl.noaa.gov/education/svrwx101/lightning/faq/

As for current flow, “conventional current flow” (positive to negative) as opposed to electron flow (negative to positive) seems counter-intuitive to me, but it is still taught and endorsed by some. As long as you’re consistent, it doesn’t matter.

Reply
Apr 12, 2021 13:11:35   #
Longshadow Loc: Audubon, PA, United States
 
Wallen wrote:
Correct. The only way to protect a system from lightning is to sacrifice destruction of a component or have something that a lighting would rather hit. Hence the lightning rods.

Lightning rods are designed to help discharge any static potential buildup, not attract lightning.
But if it were to be hit, the cabling to ground will hopefully conduct any static discharge, thus saving the building, statue, or whatever they are installed to protect. If they were designed to attract lightning, most everything that has them would get hit.

Static charges bleed off pointed objects much faster than round objects (like the top ball on a Van de Graaff generator that is designed to save a static charge.)

https://physics.stackexchange.com/questions/65825/does-a-lightning-rod-prevent-lightning-strikes

Reply
Apr 12, 2021 13:35:43   #
TriX Loc: Raleigh, NC
 
Longshadow wrote:
Lightning rods are designed to help discharge any static potential buildup, not attract lightning.
But if it were to be hit, the cabling to ground will hopefully conduct any static discharge, thus saving the building, statue, or whatever they are installed to protect. If they were designed to attract lightning, most everything that has them would get hit.

Static charges bleed off pointed objects much faster than round objects (like the top ball on a Van de Graaff generator that is designed to save a static charge.)

https://physics.stackexchange.com/questions/65825/does-a-lightning-rod-prevent-lightning-strikes
Lightning rods are designed to help discharge any ... (show quote)


Indeed. “Porcupines” (a sphere of sharp pointed wires facing outwards) are often placed in the tops of antennas for this purpose.

Reply
Apr 12, 2021 14:21:10   #
Longshadow Loc: Audubon, PA, United States
 
TriX wrote:
Indeed. “Porcupines” (a sphere of sharp pointed wires facing outwards) are often placed in the tops of antennas for this purpose.


Reply
Page <prev 2 of 3 next>
If you want to reply, then register here. Registration is free and your account is created instantly, so you can post right away.
General Chit-Chat (non-photography talk)
UglyHedgehog.com - Forum
Copyright 2011-2024 Ugly Hedgehog, Inc.