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ND Filters
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Mar 23, 2021 10:07:43   #
Alex Burr
 
reduce the exposure
Use FAST shutter speed (1/2000) helps with camera shake)

Reply
Mar 23, 2021 12:00:49   #
Picture Taker Loc: Michigan Thumb
 
I do use a filter on the camera most of the time and will shoot in HDR.

Reply
Mar 23, 2021 13:11:15   #
amfoto1 Loc: San Jose, Calif. USA
 
Depending upon what you're shooting, you might be better using flash to open up midday shadows. That can work well with relatively close subjects, but obviously will not for landscapes, architecture, etc.

Previous responses have done a good job describing the use of standard ND filters. (Won't really help you.)

Variable ND filters do the same thing as fixed strength ND, but obviously have the advantage of being variable. However, they tend to be expensive. The more affordable Variable NDs (which aren't very inexpensive) are low quality and will often cause problems in images that are difficult to fix... ugly tints, the dreaded "iron cross" shadow effect, etc. The expensive ones can work better, but aren't entirely free of all the problems... and are quite possibly the most expensive filters made in any given size.

When it comes to Graduated ND filters, assuming you're shooting digital there are significantly better ways to accomplish the same results. Personally, I used Grad NDs with film, but stopped using them not long after I started shooting digital. With digital scenic/architecture you can simply take two shots with different exposures, then combine them in post-processing (HDR technique, but not really an HDR "look"). With moving subjects, you may be only able to take one shot, but can "double process" it in post and then do a similar combining process. The results with these digital techniques in most instances is much better than was ever possible with Grad NDs when we were forced to use them with film, where such post-processing wasn't possible.

Depending upon what you're shooting, another solution might be to shoot on an overcast day. Of course, if you live in California like me, you may have to wait months for a day like that!

If you don't already have one, a Circular Polarizer might be helpful in some situations.

Or, just learn to deal with the lighting you've got. Look for subjects it accentuates, rather than subjects where it's a problem.

Or set your alarm to get up earlier... or delay dinner to stay out shooting later.

Reply
 
 
Mar 23, 2021 14:04:49   #
Timmers Loc: San Antonio Texas.
 
Toment wrote:
Since I hate to get up early, or go to bed late, I find myself shooting in full sun a lot of the time.

Would using ND filters help with the very bright sun? I do try to use the HDR when I can.


Welcome to the real 'tech' side of photography. To answer your question in a simplistic manner the answer is yes. The answer lies in the detail. ND's are NOT filters, an ND is a Neutral Density Attenuator. The operative word here is ATTENUATOR, which is different from a FILTER. So ND is an attenuator but not a filter.

Of the ND Attenuators there is one, it is called a polarizer. Now for a little more confusion (it will pass!). A polarizer is a attenuator, meaning it passes the visible light evenly like any ND filter. BUT, a polarizer may be use to alter certain types of light (mostly associated with daylight, but not entirely restricted to just light from the sun).

The problem for most new photographers is the erroneous notion that a polarizer will suppress or remove reflections. To help clarify this one simply stands in front of a mirror and looks through the polarizer and rotate the polarizer to discover that the polarizer will never remove your reflection from the mirror. Polarizers do NOT remove reflections.

To understand just what the polarizer can do for you is to go outdoors, find a tree with leaves and look carefully at the leaves on the tree being bathed in sunlight. Then raise the polarizer to your eye and rotate the polarizer. As you rotate the polarizer sunlight on the leaves will loose the stark effect of the sunlight being bounced off the surface of the leaf that is obscuring the leaf below. So by controlling the amount of spectral reflection caused by the leaf's surface you can control the the dynamic range of your subject (this is also 'seen' by the light meter so that the meter can better manage the useful range of information in the subject).

So you are using the unique properties of the ND Attenuator that is the polarizer to control the light in the scene.

There is one last part to the puzzle that is important to understand. First, there is no such thing as 'daylight'. It is a generic catch all phrase, a crutch you may say. What is 'daylight' is in fact two parts of a whole, one direct sun light, the other is sky light. The polarizer can be used to control sky light. The easy way to see this is to go find a set of freshly used rail road tracks (BIG warning, never, ever, stand close to or on rail road tracks, you can die!). View the tracks (a polished surface) while viewing them through the polarizer, as you rotate the polarizer you can see the surface reflection of the sky light become more intensely blue. Now look at the sky above with the polarizer and you will see the 'blue sky' darken to a deeper blue. So the polarizer can be used to manage the sky light in a scene. Now go into a shaded area like a buildings shadow. Rotate the polarizer and carefully observe that areas of the scene, some areas will become darker, then return to a lighter effect, like when the polarizer is removed from your eye. This effect is quite subtle, but can be used to control the effects of dark and light in a scene.

Hope that helps with your use of neutral density attenuators with a scene.

Reply
Mar 23, 2021 17:44:25   #
Bridges Loc: Memphis, Charleston SC, now Nazareth PA
 
Toment wrote:
Since I hate to get up early, or go to bed late, I find myself shooting in full sun a lot of the time.

Would using ND filters help with the very bright sun? I do try to use the HDR when I can.


Some things are just hard to control -- brightest sunlight can be problematic. Even the best sensors in cameras can only record about 15 levels of light, still less than the human eye. When I do HDR I usually take 3 shots -- 2/3 under, on, and 2/3 over. In extremely difficult lighting I can set the camera for up to 9 frames of HDR but use 5 stops most of the time. It seems when I try 7 stops, the brightest and darkest are usually throw away frames. ND filters are most valuable if you have a camera that only has 1/4000th of a sec. setting. If you can set 8000th of a sec. ND isn't really needed for general shots. They do come in handy if you want to smooth out the water on a lake or stream. A long exposure of several minutes can make a lake look totally smooth.

Reply
Mar 24, 2021 09:25:43   #
Toment Loc: FL, IL
 


Thanks

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Mar 24, 2021 09:26:36   #
Toment Loc: FL, IL
 
Canisdirus wrote:
Graduated ND's ... you bet.
Full ND's ... no.


Thanks

Reply
 
 
Mar 24, 2021 09:28:24   #
Toment Loc: FL, IL
 
camerapapi wrote:
Both, a ND filter and a graduated ND filter have their uses. The ND filter is primarily used to be able to slow the shutter down. The graduate ND filter is used to control contrast in an image, like when photographing to tone down a bright sky.
Your chances to get a better photograph, as has been already mentioned, is to get up early and go to bed late. Just look at what happens with a sunrise or a sunset. It is impossible to get those beautiful colors unless you are there at the right time. In a majority of occasions and like 20 min. after the sun sets the colors get absolutely beautiful and those colors with the appropriate subject render wonderful opportunities to make beautiful photographs.

Keep a ND filter in your camera bag for those occasions when you need to blur action, soften moving clouds or even slow the water of a waterfall down. For the skies a polarizer could be more useful if what you want is to darken the sky. A polarizer is actually a 2 stops ND at full polarization and in many occasions I have used it as a ND filter for those 2 stops of light.
Both, a ND filter and a graduated ND filter have t... (show quote)

Thanks

Reply
Mar 24, 2021 09:28:53   #
Toment Loc: FL, IL
 
User ID wrote:
No.

It’s still midday lightning even if you had a sensor that worked down to ISO UNO.


Thanks

Reply
Mar 24, 2021 09:29:22   #
Toment Loc: FL, IL
 
Alex Burr wrote:
reduce the exposure
Use FAST shutter speed (1/2000) helps with camera shake)


Good point
Thanks

Reply
Mar 24, 2021 09:30:00   #
Toment Loc: FL, IL
 
Picture Taker wrote:
I do use a filter on the camera most of the time and will shoot in HDR.


Thanks

Reply
 
 
Mar 24, 2021 09:34:19   #
Toment Loc: FL, IL
 
amfoto1 wrote:
Depending upon what you're shooting, you might be better using flash to open up midday shadows. That can work well with relatively close subjects, but obviously will not for landscapes, architecture, etc.

Previous responses have done a good job describing the use of standard ND filters. (Won't really help you.)

Variable ND filters do the same thing as fixed strength ND, but obviously have the advantage of being variable. However, they tend to be expensive. The more affordable Variable NDs (which aren't very inexpensive) are low quality and will often cause problems in images that are difficult to fix... ugly tints, the dreaded "iron cross" shadow effect, etc. The expensive ones can work better, but aren't entirely free of all the problems... and are quite possibly the most expensive filters made in any given size.

When it comes to Graduated ND filters, assuming you're shooting digital there are significantly better ways to accomplish the same results. Personally, I used Grad NDs with film, but stopped using them not long after I started shooting digital. With digital scenic/architecture you can simply take two shots with different exposures, then combine them in post-processing (HDR technique, but not really an HDR "look"). With moving subjects, you may be only able to take one shot, but can "double process" it in post and then do a similar combining process. The results with these digital techniques in most instances is much better than was ever possible with Grad NDs when we were forced to use them with film, where such post-processing wasn't possible.

Depending upon what you're shooting, another solution might be to shoot on an overcast day. Of course, if you live in California like me, you may have to wait months for a day like that!

If you don't already have one, a Circular Polarizer might be helpful in some situations.

Or, just learn to deal with the lighting you've got. Look for subjects it accentuates, rather than subjects where it's a problem.

Or set your alarm to get up earlier... or delay dinner to stay out shooting later.
Depending upon what you're shooting, you might be ... (show quote)


Thanks much

Reply
Mar 24, 2021 09:37:30   #
Toment Loc: FL, IL
 
Timmers wrote:
Welcome to the real 'tech' side of photography. To answer your question in a simplistic manner the answer is yes. The answer lies in the detail. ND's are NOT filters, an ND is a Neutral Density Attenuator. The operative word here is ATTENUATOR, which is different from a FILTER. So ND is an attenuator but not a filter.

Of the ND Attenuators there is one, it is called a polarizer. Now for a little more confusion (it will pass!). A polarizer is a attenuator, meaning it passes the visible light evenly like any ND filter. BUT, a polarizer may be use to alter certain types of light (mostly associated with daylight, but not entirely restricted to just light from the sun).

The problem for most new photographers is the erroneous notion that a polarizer will suppress or remove reflections. To help clarify this one simply stands in front of a mirror and looks through the polarizer and rotate the polarizer to discover that the polarizer will never remove your reflection from the mirror. Polarizers do NOT remove reflections.

To understand just what the polarizer can do for you is to go outdoors, find a tree with leaves and look carefully at the leaves on the tree being bathed in sunlight. Then raise the polarizer to your eye and rotate the polarizer. As you rotate the polarizer sunlight on the leaves will loose the stark effect of the sunlight being bounced off the surface of the leaf that is obscuring the leaf below. So by controlling the amount of spectral reflection caused by the leaf's surface you can control the the dynamic range of your subject (this is also 'seen' by the light meter so that the meter can better manage the useful range of information in the subject).

So you are using the unique properties of the ND Attenuator that is the polarizer to control the light in the scene.

There is one last part to the puzzle that is important to understand. First, there is no such thing as 'daylight'. It is a generic catch all phrase, a crutch you may say. What is 'daylight' is in fact two parts of a whole, one direct sun light, the other is sky light. The polarizer can be used to control sky light. The easy way to see this is to go find a set of freshly used rail road tracks (BIG warning, never, ever, stand close to or on rail road tracks, you can die!). View the tracks (a polished surface) while viewing them through the polarizer, as you rotate the polarizer you can see the surface reflection of the sky light become more intensely blue. Now look at the sky above with the polarizer and you will see the 'blue sky' darken to a deeper blue. So the polarizer can be used to manage the sky light in a scene. Now go into a shaded area like a buildings shadow. Rotate the polarizer and carefully observe that areas of the scene, some areas will become darker, then return to a lighter effect, like when the polarizer is removed from your eye. This effect is quite subtle, but can be used to control the effects of dark and light in a scene.

Hope that helps with your use of neutral density attenuators with a scene.
Welcome to the real 'tech' side of photography. To... (show quote)

Thanks so much

Reply
Mar 24, 2021 09:38:42   #
Toment Loc: FL, IL
 
Bridges wrote:
Some things are just hard to control -- brightest sunlight can be problematic. Even the best sensors in cameras can only record about 15 levels of light, still less than the human eye. When I do HDR I usually take 3 shots -- 2/3 under, on, and 2/3 over. In extremely difficult lighting I can set the camera for up to 9 frames of HDR but use 5 stops most of the time. It seems when I try 7 stops, the brightest and darkest are usually throw away frames. ND filters are most valuable if you have a camera that only has 1/4000th of a sec. setting. If you can set 8000th of a sec. ND isn't really needed for general shots. They do come in handy if you want to smooth out the water on a lake or stream. A long exposure of several minutes can make a lake look totally smooth.
Some things are just hard to control -- brightest ... (show quote)


Thanks

Reply
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