Rongnongno Loc: FL

You are confusing working for experience and (not) selling for 'exposure' while gaining 'experience' you should have had in the first place by being an apprentice first.

The problem with photography is that anybody can claim anything. Have camera, be a photographer. The first wave of this mentality started when the 35 SLR came to. Now with digital cameras the cost associated with film, film processing and viewing is simply gone*. The camera has become the photographer...

Like everything else one has to learn first before anything else. Few folks are 'naturals'.

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* See my next thread...

FredCM Loc: Central Illinois

Neil Van Neikirk (neilvn.com) talks about scams where they want to hire him and somehow work a credit card scam. Since I'm hardly a pro I really didn't pay a lot of attention, but if someone out of the blue wants to do you a favor or provide something "for free," think twice.

burkphoto Loc: High Point, NC

Charity and family might get me to do a small project "for free." Everyone else is a customer or client. Any decent client is respectful enough to pay the upfront price (or negotiate price and terms). A customer has no loyalty or trust, and isn't interested in a long term association. Customers pay the full price.

I learned that lesson as a teen, selling photos to friends and the yearbook advisor at school. The advisor warned me, "If you give anything away, everyone will find out, and you won't sell anything." So I sold every photo someone asked for. It paid for my equipment and materials and some fancy stereo gear.

JFCoupe Loc: Kent, Washington

I found myself thinking that the original post was a tad nasty and cynical. I also realize that folks tend to take advantage of providers of service if they can and ask for discounts, free goods, etc.

I think too, that there is a thinking that if folks can't get a 'volunteer photographer' they will then pay a professional. I am familiar with a few instances where I have done a wedding, my niece's, and a Quincincera, for a close friend's daughter, where there would have been not photographs if I hadn't done it without a fee.

So in summary, I think that at times, volunteering to photograph an event for free does not take money away from a professional. The images may not always be at full professional level, but it doesn't mean its garbage either.

User ID

*EVERYTHING* is wrong with that ... only EVERYTHING ! Acoarst it happens all the time :-(

“Everything” becuz both the client and the practitioner share equally in their clearly questionable venture.

rmalarz Loc: Tempe, Arizona

Some charities I'll photograph for free and enjoy doing it.

Others, once the terms of the session are discussed and agreed to, require a non-refundable deposit as assurance. The amount of the deposit is enough to cover my time alone for whatever I am to photograph. It also is included in the final fee.
--Bob

Rongnongno Loc: FL

Many of you folks are utterly confused...

Do you really think if your car was in need of service you would dare ask for a freebie so that the mechanic get 'exposure' and 'experience' in working on your specific model? Would you trust someone working like that? I think not.

I certainly would not.

I have been offered courtesy discounts after doing some unrelated work for folks who had a business. As a principle, I always turn that down simply because I have been in business and I must respect their need for profit to survive. Under the same idea I have refused 'fidelity cards' because I also get a military discount. Under the same idea I ALWAYS refused discounts or freebies to anyone, including charities (that I do not trust anyway).

This is the same as loaning $$$ to family and friends is the best bet to sour relationships so... No loan, sorry, or it is with a written contract that create an obligation to pay back within a time limit. On the other hand I have given a sizable amount of $$$ w/o being interested in pay back. My only requirement in this case? "Pay it forward when you can". I have no idea if it does happen, none of my business. Family, friends and strangers have benefited from this.

As to scratching one's back in order to be scratched in turn, sorry but one always end-up with welts on one's back or dirt under their nails.

hrblaine

[quote=Rongnongno]Any time someone asks you anything 'for free', 'to advertise' double the price.
Any time mentions 'for experience' or 'to learn' laugh in their face.

I've never asked for anything "for free" nor have I ever been asked. This whole thread is BS and I'm ashamed that I participated in it. Harry

Rongnongno Loc: FL

You are not paying attention to what is being posted on UHH then.

RPaul3rd Loc: Arlington VA and Sarasota FL

Your comments about the police person who died was rude, crude and socially unacceptable. Who are you to criticize another? I did not like Rush Limbaugh but, since his death, I have never NEVER made a cynical remark like yours. Fat pension?

MrPhotog

My work has a value. If it didn’t, no one would want it.

When I had my studio it was in a town with a popular Christian college. Many of their alumni were missionaries who would return on a fairly regular basis, so I was frequently approached by people who needed photos for ‘prayer cards’. The other local studios, and the regular free-lancers charged full price (or more) when dealing with this trade, as past experience had suggested.

I kept my costs down by doing fewer exposures and scheduling sittings in studio on ‘down’ days. I never did these on location!

I was happy to get the business and they were happy with the price. I did not need to haggle, as we all knew I was charging less than the other studios already.

Working for free? For advertising? I did a few times, but there were conditions.

For a charity auction I would donate a gift certificate worth the cost of a sitting fee and a print. The winner knew the value of their prize.

Purina ( pet foods ) years ago introduced a new dog food and came to the Professional Photographers Association annual meeting, which that year was in St Louis, the base for Purina. They wanted to put a coupon on every bag of this new dog food giving each pet owner a free 3-1/2 x 5. They predicted (based on other previous giveaways of leashes and food bowls) that there would be hundreds of thousands of responses. Like 1000 other studios, I signed up, and got my studio name printed on an insert in millions of bags of dog food. I expected 100 to 150 people to respond. Or more! Over the next 18 months (the life of the promotion) I photographed 7 dogs. In comparing my results with other members of the PPA in Illinois, I may have had the best response. At least it didn't cost me much, and only one dog was so nervous that we had to clean the carpet after he left. I sold a few large prints, and framed a couple for studio display.

After that I decided that charities which wanted donations could purchase a gift certificate, and I would donate a personal check back to them equal to the purchase price. The reasoning was simple: I wanted to show cash flow, and an incoming payment meant more money coming in as revenue. My bank liked to see that. At the time I could write off the personal donation on my taxes. I’m not sure if such a transaction today would be considered illegal ‘money laundering’, so get an opinion from a financial expert, or a lawyer, before trying it.

Photocraig

Human nature instinctively values objects and services in direct proportion to what they pay, either in money or otherwise, for them. Over a 50+ year career in sales it has always proven true. Instead of price and money, it is most important to reflect on the VALUE of the product or service for the individual, at that time in those circumstances. Price gets i the way--it is really a measure of exchange--for value which is and actual utility of teh product or service.

bdk Loc: Sanibel Fl.

when you shoot for free or give someone a really BIg discount to get experience.
You devalue your work and for years you will have people saying. He I know you shot so and so's wedding for $500.00 can you shoot mine too for $500.00

On the other hand. I had a guy locally offer to shoot weddings for $150.00 . My prices 20x more than his . I constantly had people throw that guys adds in my face. If you read his small print. You got 2 hours and 20 prints. which he printed himself. You want them as Files it was more. so you buy cheap you get cheap.

Rongnongno Loc: FL

Uh??????????????????????

User ID

I would not retract nor alter a word. Those folks are my community, not yours. WTF do you know about them, except what I’d related for purpose of that example about the unreasonable expectation of freebie services.

How about this: roll back time to that moment. “OK. We’ll play the gig for a minor share in his fat pension. No up front gig price.”

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OTOH I have no reticence about being rudely crudely socially unacceptable. I don’t roll over. I call a spade a spade. AAMOF I’ve already formed an opinion about you ... one that works for me.