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Sensors and dynamic range
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Jan 15, 2021 21:08:29   #
TriX Loc: Raleigh, NC
 
I would just add that while the shape of DXO’s ISO vs DR graph is useful, take the absolute values with a large grain of salt as their measurement methodology is suspect. Why? Because it is impossible for a 14 bit raw file to have a DR higher than 14 bits, and in fact, once you factor in noise, digitization error and the 1/2 LSB error that’s a fact of life with A/Ds, a more realistic value is closer to 12 bits or stops. Let me instead suggest the measurements and graphs from: https://www.photonstophotos.net/Charts/PDR.htm

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Jan 16, 2021 06:07:59   #
chrisg-optical Loc: New York, NY
 
gvarner wrote:
Good answer. Non-technical. Sounds right to me.


Yes, it is a big factor, but it is more than that. Lens IQ also factors into the DR equation. DSP processing. Settings - you can raise or lower your camera's DR setting too. Post processing. Also don't forget the MEDIA you are viewing the image on - screen, print, etc.

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Jan 16, 2021 07:53:25   #
cameraf4 Loc: Delaware
 
Might these help?

https://digital-photography-school.com/understanding-dynamic-range-photography/
https://www.bhphotovideo.com/explora/photography/tips-and-solutions/dynamic-range-explained
https://www.photonstophotos.net/Charts/DXOPDR.htm

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Jan 16, 2021 07:54:15   #
whfowle Loc: Tampa first, now Albuquerque
 
Read some interesting explanations provided by some of our Hoggers here. One aspect that I have often wondered about is how all this fabulous dynamic range provided by the best digital cameras is captured in what we can view as a picture on photographic paper, steel plates, or just on computer monitors. And compared to what we used to expect from various photographic films. I used to worry about what kind of capture I could produce with reversal films since most had rather narrow dynamic range. Kodachrome was the widest and Ektachrome was very narrow. Even today, how much of the dynamic range captured in camera is able to be produced on a print coming from an ink jet printer or photographic paper. Or for that matter, how much dynamic range can be shown on an iPad or iPhone screen since that seems to be the most used viewing option used today. I have never seen a discussion along these lines. Maybe some of the professionals here could elaborate on that subject.

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Jan 16, 2021 08:15:49   #
Delderby Loc: Derby UK
 
User ID wrote:
Amen. So simple, but Hogsters do seem to thrive on long winded pointlessness.

:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

There’s several usernames I skip right over, hardly ever read a word. Not saying I disagree with them. I just don’t need endless looong pages of non-nutritional filler on my plate. But you can see by the replies that many Hogsters just eat that stuff right up !


Maybe "long winded" and "pointless" to thee and me - but not to those who participate in the discussion - they have provided me with a better, (not perfect) understanding of DR. I am happy with my choice of camera, knowing that if less DR should ever cause me a problem, I can resort to RAW, which i could then use to improve my M4/3 pics beyond the DR of APS-C JPGS.

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Jan 16, 2021 08:50:16   #
Canisdirus
 
Delderby wrote:
Maybe "long winded" and "pointless" to thee and me - but not to those who participate in the discussion - they have provided me with a better, (not perfect) understanding of DR. I am happy with my choice of camera, knowing that if less DR should ever cause me a problem, I can resort to RAW, which i could then use to improve my M4/3 pics beyond the DR of APS-C JPGS.


Heh, I do believe APS-C can shoot RAW.

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Jan 16, 2021 08:51:52   #
Delderby Loc: Derby UK
 
Canisdirus wrote:
Heh, I do believe APS-C can shoot RAW.


Ha ha - yes - how many do though?

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Jan 16, 2021 09:02:26   #
imagemeister Loc: mid east Florida
 
Strodav wrote:
You got some good answers on what it is, but what it means is more important. Here's a graph of the Dynamic Range of a Nikon D850 from DxOMark.com. The human eye can capture a difference between light and dark of about 20 stops. That's 2^20 or we can perceive something about 1,000,000 times darker than the brightest object in a scene. Higher end cameras can capture around 14 to 15 stops as base ISO, less than the human visual system, but the graph shows that ability drops very quickly a stop or two above base. At the same time the noise (green to red bar on the right) starts to go up. It's a good idea to understand this curve before bumping up ISO and then wondering why the image looks flat and washed out or the highlights are blown out or the shadows are buried. If you are getting blinkies, one option might be to lower the ISO at the expense of shutter speed and/or aperture. At the same time, the number of bits of color a sensor can capture also goes down with increasing ISO.

Good topic OP
You got some good answers on what it is, but what ... (show quote)


This is probably the most IMPORTANT practical aspect of the OP's questioning ! Well stated - Thanks for sharing
.

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Jan 16, 2021 09:07:00   #
imagemeister Loc: mid east Florida
 
Delderby wrote:
Maybe "long winded" and "pointless" to thee and me - but not to those who participate in the discussion - they have provided me with a better, (not perfect) understanding of DR. I am happy with my choice of camera, knowing that if less DR should ever cause me a problem, I can resort to RAW, which i could then use to improve my M4/3 pics beyond the DR of APS-C JPGS.


Yes, the smaller the sensor the better the reason for resorting to raw .....
.

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Jan 16, 2021 09:09:39   #
Canisdirus
 
Delderby wrote:
Ha ha - yes - how many do though?


I think most of them.
Compact cameras with fixed lenses can now shoot RAW.
My old Sony A77 can shoot in RAW...and that sucker is like 8 years old.

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Jan 16, 2021 09:10:27   #
imagemeister Loc: mid east Florida
 
TriX wrote:
as their measurement methodology is suspect.



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Jan 16, 2021 09:51:35   #
bleirer
 
gvarner wrote:
What determines the dynamic range in a sensor? Is it just the number of pixels and the sensor dimensions? I don’t recall seeing dynamic range info featured in camera specs, e.g. +- 5 stops. Thank you for you thoughts.


You ask a good question. It made me review what I though I already knew, but had more to learn. This article is not too technical but gets into the weeds a bit. I guess I think of it as the blackest black the camera can record before details are lost compared to the whitest white the camera can record before details are lost.

https://www.cambridgeincolour.com/tutorials/dynamic-range.htm

If you scroll down in this link which was already given, there is a list of a lot of cameras so you can see how different models stack up. You can sort by clicking a column header. https://www.photonstophotos.net/Charts/PDR.htm

If someone can explain more about what low light ISO and low light ev means in the chart I would appreciate?

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Jan 16, 2021 10:00:24   #
TucsonDave Loc: Tucson, Arizona
 
Rongnongno wrote:
Answers are too complicated...

The dynamic range is simply the exposure latitude you can use before you blow one extreme, highlight or dark. The range is a number between 10/16 at the moment. +-5/+-8. The greater the number the better.

The dynamic range is related to luminosity, not color rendition*.

To exploit the full DR of a camera one needs to use raw. A JPG out of a camera will benefit from the camera native dynamic range but will not offer the potential edit that the raw format does.

There is a relation between the sensor element size (density) but this is not of any interest here.

---------------
* Some will dispute that. A correctly exposed capture colors will not suffer from the lack of dynamic range. The color simply will not have the same shade variations.
Answers are too complicated... br br The dynamic ... (show quote)


What a concise, understandable explanation! Excellent job. Thank you for your clear, direct explanation.

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Jan 16, 2021 10:12:32   #
Strodav Loc: Houston, Tx
 
whfowle wrote:
Read some interesting explanations provided by some of our Hoggers here. One aspect that I have often wondered about is how all this fabulous dynamic range provided by the best digital cameras is captured in what we can view as a picture on photographic paper, steel plates, or just on computer monitors. And compared to what we used to expect from various photographic films. I used to worry about what kind of capture I could produce with reversal films since most had rather narrow dynamic range. Kodachrome was the widest and Ektachrome was very narrow. Even today, how much of the dynamic range captured in camera is able to be produced on a print coming from an ink jet printer or photographic paper. Or for that matter, how much dynamic range can be shown on an iPad or iPhone screen since that seems to be the most used viewing option used today. I have never seen a discussion along these lines. Maybe some of the professionals here could elaborate on that subject.
Read some interesting explanations provided by som... (show quote)


Good point and good questions. I believe that part of the artistry of photography is deciding how to manipulate the image file for display. My philosophy is to capture all the dynamic range and detail I can in the camera when I click the shutter button. The display method I choose may not be able to completely reproduce it, but I can decide which parts of the tonal range of the image to display by manipulating the tone curves. Likewise, I can emphasize detail for the display method I choose through dozens of sharpening algorithms. I can have multiple versions of the image, say, one for srgb calibrated monitors and one for my Epson Photo Printer. But, if I did not capture the range or detail in the original image, I have nothing to manipulate in post. I think of it the same way I think of raw vs jpg.

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Jan 16, 2021 10:28:14   #
gwilliams6
 
burkphoto wrote:
There is little point to considering "sensor dynamic range" in isolation. We record images with whole cameras. A camera is a system, and every system I've ever worked with is only as good as its weakest point. In photography, with recent cameras, that weak point is seldom the sensor. It's usually the image processing.

Since part of the photography system can be outside of the camera (computer, monitor, calibrator, software, printers, profiles, etc.), it makes sense to focus on that, too, when you're striving to maximize *apparent* dynamic range.

Silver halide photographic paper reflects about 90% of the light falling on it, under the best of circumstances. Out of an 8-bits per channel image, a range of values somewhere between 12-242 and 18-236 is all we see reflected from most papers. That's around 5 f/stops. But with 12-15 stops of range possibly recorded in raw data, what do we do with the other 7-9 stops?

The answer is found in the various sliders in post-processing software. Detail that is "burned out" or "plugged up" in an out-of-camera JPEG may be there in a raw file of the same image. When that is the case, much of it can be "recovered" (tonally compressed to the point we can see it within the range of brightness that the paper or screen can reflect or transmit). Of course, it is possible to make an awful mess of an otherwise good image, by over-applying adjustments. And unless the monitor is properly capable, calibrated, and profiled, adjusting images at all may well do more harm than good.

So take dynamic range analysis of sensors with a grain of salt. In the final analysis, most PEOPLE don't give a rat's patoot what camera a photographer used, or whether it was film or digital, or whether it was full frame or smaller. They care about the art, or the communications value, or the emotional impact of the image. If it speaks to them in a way that has the photographer's intended effect, who cares?

Most of the spec wars don't amount to anything tangible unless we're making HUGE prints on 8-14 color inkjet printers, on really exotic, archival, museum grade papers. That can be important in the world of landscape photography, or point-of-purchase advertising, or copying artist's renderings from paper or canvas. But for the rest of us making 16x20 and smaller prints, or just viewing our images on screens, it's a fairly moot point.
There is little point to considering "sensor ... (show quote)


All your answers have great and correct info on this subject, thanks Burk.

But those who say 24mp is the sweet spot are incorrect. As sensor technology advances, so has dynamic range advanced. You now have 61mp cameras that have equal or even better dynamic range as some 24mp and 42mp sensors, just the facts. So there is no absolute formula or limitation anymore. Cheers

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