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How many pixels do we really need
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Jan 15, 2021 15:50:41   #
jdmiles Loc: Texas
 
You don't need 300 ppi for high quality printing with today's print technologies. I try not to drop below 240 ppi but will not hesitate to drop to 200 to get the print size I want.

I am going off in the weeds not just for this comment but many in this thread.
One cannot invent pixels that are correct. The fact that you can get by with 200 ppi when you print is because the algorithms used for upsampling are quite good. But that does not mean it will always work.
When you look for a camera, the things that count are number of pixels, dynamic range, sensitivity, or usable ISO range, ... Even some of the specs will not make bit of difference for certain photography. What isn't in there is crop factor. It is baked into the other specs mentioned. On the other hand, when you go to choose a lens the crop factor is very important because on a full frame 50mm is 50mm but on a crop 1.6 sensor 50mmx1.6 or 80mm. Most beginning photographers probably start with a crop sensor because they are generally cheaper. At some point they might change to a full frame because they need better performance in a certain area.
Rhetorical question: Why don't we all just shoot 4K video, pull the best frame, upsample it and print big prints? So, maybe we won't be needed any longer. Or, we had better figure out how to meet higher expectations

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Jan 15, 2021 16:52:55   #
WDCash Loc: Milford, Delaware, USA
 
cactuspic wrote:
Sorry, I was rushing out to get my Covid vaccine shot. I should have sent a finished image, instead of the raw image reduced to a jpeg. I thought we were discussing whether the eye focusing worked, for which that image was sufficient. if I knew it was a your were intent on criticizing my skills as a photographer, I certainly would have waited and finished up the image...probably should have done that anyway.

I have attached the image after some noise reduction, minor selective sharpening, minor exposure adjustments and removal of the gross sharpening that Lightroom adds. (I will need to do a preset in the future) The highlights are not blown, although the frontal lighting does not pick up much detail in the back of the head.

That the ISO and exposure decisions in your shot and mine are equivalent is just not so. You are shooting a single colored, stationary bird that is smaller and has far less depth. My bird is black and white with black portions in the shadows and white portions in the sun. It has a huge wingspan. I am shooting handheld with a focal length of 560mm. In order to keep the wingtips in focus, I chose f/11 at 1/1600 of a second at ISO That exposure allowed me to hold the highlights and not block up the shadows. If you look at the histogram, the is little play on either end.

You may like the shot or not, I don't particularly care. The question we started out discussing and for which the image was meant to show was whether the eye focusing works in the Canon R5 and whether it is advantageous when shooting birds in flight. I will leave it at that. I refuse to get into protracted and silly arguments
Sorry, I was rushing out to get my Covid vaccine s... (show quote)



I like it. Alot actually
I didn't follow the intent of your post at first, sorry, but your saying your R5 was locked on the lead pelican's eye and was tracking focus aswell as movement on its eye? Remarkable.
Oh BTW, great shot

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Jan 15, 2021 17:35:53   #
Canisdirus
 
WDCash wrote:
My cataract surgery on one eye was yesterday, recovering today. The cost of the upgraded lenses, in my eyes, has put a hold on my new camera body purchase. ( Please excuse any strange keyboard or spelling messups. Working with altered vision today.)
This led me back into the rabbit hole of why I want a new body (cause I'm not 18 anymore?).

I shoot mostly wildlife and of that mostly birds.very often from a moving platform, a boat.

From what I have been reading high pixel cameras are more sensitive to camera movement. This got me wondering about the 90d I have been lusting after. At 32 megapixels its equal to a full frame at 51 megapixels. I'm also trying to avoid more high iso noise. For wildlife, for me, speed is king.

This got me looking over the older 1D offerings with H size sensors.

I crop often, ok almost always, and sometime big crops.
So I'm wondering about pixel density and print image size. But the normal thoughts of 300 dpi for high quality printing a 16.1. Mp image (canon 1D 1V H. Sensor) would print a max image of 4896 x 3264 or 16.3"x10.8" but. We also know that for larger printing 300 dpi may not be necessary. Cropped at 50% would be 8x5. Of for web but not so good to print?

So I guess the question is, at what point does "blowing up" an image does an image begin to soften due to pixelation?

Along the same line.
I had a thought the other day when PS wanted to Rastorize (sp?) an image because of something I tried to do. (Still learning)
When an image is rastorized isn't that like the digital equivelant of a "line type" image? Would restorizing help to preserve detail if an image is being enlarged?

Thanks
Bill
My cataract surgery on one eye was yesterday, reco... (show quote)


A couple of things...

First off, and I understand how these things gain traction. A 32MP crop is not equal to a 51MP FF.
It would be if the crop camera had more sensor area...but it doesn't. It's still going to be a 32MP image. If you crop that image..it falls away quickly...but a bit better than a 24MP crop camera.
It does have more pixels crammed into that crop area, which has advantages and disadvantages...but IQ isn't a concern between a 32MP and a 24MP crop camera. I doubt anyone can tell the difference.
Now for the more important and daily real time usage issue...cropping.
I have a very high MP camera ...but that is not the dominant factor in regards to cropping.
The quality of my sensor and especially my lens is the real determining factor.
It doesn't matter if you have a 32MP crop or a 24MP crop if you don't start out with a wickedly sharp image.
I cropped all the time with my Sony A77II (24MP crop)...and the results were...just okay.
Now with my Sony A7RIV... I can't put an average lens in front of it and hope to create a great cropped image.
It will show the optical flaws of the lens.
But I can make severe crops with my 135mm f/1.8 GM lens all day long...it stays sharp.
Put a kit lens on instead, and it all goes south in a hurry.

It's the sensor quality and the lens you are after...not so much MP's. That will give you the crops you need.
Better glass...better crops.

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Jan 15, 2021 19:34:31   #
cactuspic Loc: Dallas, TX
 
WDCash wrote:
I like it. Alot actually
I didn't follow the intent of your post at first, sorry, but your saying your R5 was locked on the lead pelican's eye and was tracking focus as well as movement on its eye? Remarkable.
Oh BTW, great shot


Thank you WD.

That is exactly what it does with eye focus. There are two setting, one for birds and other animals and the other for people. It's not perfect and sometimes has difficulty acquiring focus or will pick up the wrong bird if there are more than one. Still, it's amazing technology. From what I read, it is a substantial improvement over the prior generation of eye focus. If you are interested there are numerous reviews by photographer who have actually used the R5. My biggest use is tracking the lead eye of my little granddaughter. On other benefit is that its mechanical shutter will shoot at 10 frames/second. Its electronic shutter will fire at 20/second.

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Jan 15, 2021 23:38:15   #
Ched49 Loc: Pittsburgh, Pa.
 
If it was up to the camera companies...the skies the limit!

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Jan 16, 2021 01:10:03   #
hjkarten Loc: San Diego, California
 
If you download the high resolution picture of the brown pelican in the foreground contributed by cactuspic, and then blow up the region of the eye of the brown pelican in the foreground, you will see that the edge of the iris adjoining the pupil is very sharp. That was the point that the owner of the photo was trying to make. He is correct in his statement. The texture of the feathers are also quite crisp within the region of DOF. Criticizing his picture for issues that can be easily dealt with in Lightroom is not fair game.
Harvey

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Jan 16, 2021 05:45:04   #
LEWHITE7747 Loc: 33773
 
Unless the birds were in the same plane the depth of focus will be off for the second bird. Very difficult shot when there is movement. The camera did it's job.

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Jan 16, 2021 16:51:18   #
Gene51 Loc: Yonkers, NY, now in LSD (LowerSlowerDelaware)
 
WDCash wrote:
Great example. Thanks


This is a very reliable explanation of how many pixels you "need" for a sharp looking image, with a physiological rationale, based on what we can actually see at a given distance.

http://www.photokaboom.com/photography/learn/printing/resolution/1_which_resolution_print_size_viewing_distance.htm

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