Dan' de Bourgogne

(radio trigger slipped into camera's hotshoe)

I got last week a D7200+16-85 Nikkor lens!
I'm happy with this replacement of my oldD70+18-70 Nikkor: bigger screen, better resolution, better dynamic range and a enormous lot more ...
So I wanted to discover several of the "new features/functions" this set offers: namely, "HDR"-mode!

For me, HDR is just one of different means to counteract the effects of a very large difference between deep shadows and high lights. It should help to keep the scale of the "IL" in a acceptable range so the final picture shows details in shadows and details in high lights as well. No doubt, certainly it does the job it's intended for!

But they are different ways to go :
a) the well knowned method: shooting 3 or 4 times the same scene (tripod helps), each shot keeping the same aperture but adjusting shutter speed to change the exposure...and afterwards, by editing, merge those images..
OK, it works...
b) for me, now, a total knew method...the D7200 allows to shoot in HDR mode...just select "HDR" and You get a choice to shoot either a serie or just only 1 single image in that mode!
Quite interesting! So I'm excited to discover what results it can produce.
c) Also new for me...the D7200 gets a setting called "D-lighting"...which makes automatically the shadows looking brighter, so it "reduces" the final dynamic range of the image
d) facing this issue of "large -IL- scale" quite often, I got the habit to solve partially this problem by boucing a flash burst to keep the Highlight "not blinking and getting also the shadows enough brighter so they show details. End effect = narrows the "IL"-scale of the image.

So...for me, using that "HDR-mode" or using a flash burst, both methods are aiming to about the same end.

With this mindset, I imagined why not to try to combine both in the same shot...
I thought, perhaps it will "accentuate" the HDR effect, making it even more efficient?
Allez, give it a try.

So, I have read (quite too rapidly) the user's guide, just to know what menu, what button/dial etc...to set that "new HDR-mode".

Finally, i have set "HDR"...+ 1 single shoot (not a serie)...slipped my little radio trigger in the hot shoe of the D7200...set a SB 26 (mode M...power 1/4)...
And click!...arghhh...flash missfired...I checked everything...Humm...strange...nothing seamed to be wrong...

So, try again?..OK...same settings...hélas, same results.

I tought I make something wrong
I got one more time the user's guide at hand AND made a lecture...this time quite slowly, quite carefully...
Suddenly, I discovered hat the text specifies somewhere "when set in mode HDR, flash CAN'T be used"

Questions are: why did the designers this choice?
Why does the camera (when set in HDR mode!) inhibit the synch' of any OCF?
Is there a way to avoid this ?

Thank You for sharing Your comments.

Daniel

Bobspez Loc: Southern NJ, USA

If the camera can use the built in flash with HDR mode, the built in flash can trigger the SB26 if the SB26 light sensor can see the built in flash.

Gene51 Loc: Yonkers, NY, now in LSD (LowerSlowerDelaware)

As far as your questions - you'd have to reach out to Nikon. But my guess is that in-camera HDR mode fires off two exposures in rapid succession, and I don't think that there is any flash that can recycle that quickly.

But it begs the question why you wouldn't want to shoot a manual HDR, where you end up with multiple files that you merge - the end result is usually better, AND you wouldn't sacrifice being able to shoot with flash. The other benefit is being able to make adjustments to the final product that cannot be done when the camera is doing all of the processing, which only offers a two shot exposure merge, 5 strength settings and 3 smoothing modes, and, in my D800, only 3 EV settings. You can be far more precise with software.

What situation would you need to use a flash to do HDR?

D-Lighting works by "borrowing" dynamic range from the highlights, making it very prone to overexposed highlights. It should not be considered as a means to expand dynamic range, but rather a tool that can be used to open up shadows with less noise, as long as the dynamic range of the scene isn't too great.

Dan' de Bourgogne

hello Bobspez..thanks for taking time to help me!

Ok, that is right: the pop-up flash normally will "optically" trigger an SB 26. No doubt.

When I say "normally", I'm thinking when the camera IS NOT set in mode "HDR".

Of course, I also tried to get a burst from the pop-up flash having the camera set in HDR...just the problem is, the camera does not fire the pop-up as long it is set on mode "HDR".
And in the user's guide it is clearly written, something like "the camera does not allow to use a flash as long it is set in HDR mode.
That is the point I don't understand...What are the reasons for this?
Perhaps nobody except myself would never try to shoot HDR mode AND at the same time, firing a burst from flash...but I dont see any issue to allow a flash burst to be fired in HDR mode.
May be there is a technical problem I never heard of?

Bobspez Loc: Southern NJ, USA

You are welcome, Dan. You can simulate HDR in non HDR mode by shooting raw, and making a couple of copies of the raw image, and setting highlights and shadows and brightness and contrast and saturation differently on each, then merging the three images in Photoshop. Then you can use the off camera flash.

Dan' de Bourgogne

Thank You Gene51 for all Your help.
I believe You are probably/perhaps right ..."in-camera HDR mode fires off two exposures in rapid succession, and I don't think that there is any flash that can recycle that quickly."

Frankly said, I'm just discovering those features of modern cameras and I try to find out where are the limits.
Better said, I try to "extract all the juice out from the fruit"

In fact, I discoverd the opportunity to shoot HDR in only ONE single shoot...
(seems to be a nice "improvement").
So, I tried it ...first without flash... and the result was quite "acceptable"
And after this, I played with the idea "what about adding a flash burst?"
What result can I expect of this?

The idea was...have a back ground showing a large "IL" scale that need to be "HDR-treated" (=reduced) and have a subject (portrait?) in such deep shadows so You must light him up by a flash burst...

So the question sounds: is it possible to "treat" the back ground lighting's issue via "HDR-solution" and simultaneously, use a flash burst to light up a portrait?
I was just curious to find out what are the "limits" of that feature.

OK...now it is obvious... the designers did not allow to shoot "HDR+flash"

But I don't understand why firing flash is not compatible with shooting in"HDR-mode"
I don't understand it because I think, even if in-camera HDR mode fires off two exposures in rapid succession, it would be enough to allow the flash to fire just once...either at the 1st or at the second shot.

This is just my opinion...
I like to understand why/how, etc...
Anyway, it is not really a problem if Nikon inhibits firing flash when camera is set in HDR mode!
I certainly will survive further without bursting flash while in HDR-mode...all the more this feature is quite simple and quickly to be set and gives a quite nice exposed picture.

I would have preferred to know the reason why they don't let the flash to fire when HDR mode is set.

Anyway, merci Gene51 for Your help!
Amicalement
Daniel

Dan' de Bourgogne

Yes, Bobspez, that is true...I can also shoot one single frame in non HDR mode and afterwards, by editing, making several copies, setting etc,etc, merging etc etc...No problem. You are right.

I just thought, it could be interesting to add a flash burst while taking a single frame in HDR-mode:
simple, quick, efficient!

It could save time and efforts in the following case:
Shot a portrait of a dark woman standing in deep shadows, but she stands in front of a back ground which is quite "complicate" because it shows very deep shadows AND large areas of high lights...(=back ground needs HDR-treatment)
Problem is: one want the woman well lit (flash)...and one want also the back ground correctly exposed (=HDR)
Obviously, the woman needs to be lit by a flash burst....so what?
1 image...in HDR mode shot with a flash burst. Period! This would be IDEAL!

I would have liked to get the opportunity to shot that way...because it sounds simple/quick/efficient.
Hélas, the thing does not run that way.
Anyway, I'm already happy because I can now shot one single frame getting it "HDR treated" direct out from sensor. Even without the opportunity to fire a flash burst, I find it super cool.
A nice improvement, is'nt it?
But it would have been even better to be allowed to shot a flash burst...

Again dear Bobspez, thank you for sharing Your advices and experience. Kind of You.

aphelps Loc: Central Ohio

The flash may use too much of its power on the first shot and does not recharge in time for the second. Try reducing the flash output power and compensate with aperture and/or iso. You should be able to 3 or 4 flashes in rapid succession. Check settings on flash and trigger for "multi" settings which allow multiple flashes without a recharge. If not, the others here have offered good alternative.

Machinedoc Loc: Yorktown Heights, NY

1) See P 141 of manual; flash is not operative in HDR. 2) in camera HDR requires that you capture in JPEG format; 3) if you shoot in RAW, bracket your exposures (you can take 3 or 5 exposures) and the create the HDR composite in post-processing (Photoshop and Lightroom work very well). Have fun - the D7200 is a great machine!!!

kenArchi Loc: Seal Beach, CA

There will be little difference in brightness exposure should a flash work in all three hdr exposures.

If you manually set exposures at 1/30, 1/60, and 1/120. And flash on full manual power. You may see very little brightness differences.

For hdr flash you may have to lower the flash power at a starting point of 1/64 power for quick recycling. Then work up from there. Use manual flash setting.

So, experiment. And let us know what are your results.

Dan' de Bourgogne

Good evening Messieurs aphelps, Machinedoc, and kenArchi!
Thank You so much for all the tips, comments and procédure You suggest to try.

It is really kind of You all to share Your experience, knowledge, etc.

This afternoon, I got an e-mail from "Nikon support" whom I sent my request few days ago.

They just confirm in their mail...
" HDR mode is not compatible with certain settings like photography with flash. We inform You that, unfortunatly, we are not able to suggest a solution in order to counteract this situation. Best regards, etc"

In other words...as long the camera is set "at HDR mode"...this setting automatically prohibits to fire the flash. Schluss!
So...flash can't be fired as long HDR mode is set. Period.

I shoot mainly JPEG...so I rarely bother with RAW.
If I have to take a picture in HDR mode AND ALSO have to fire the flash, it will be only because
1) the background shows up at the same time deep shadows and very bright lit areas...
2) the main subject (in front of that background) stands in shadow and needs to get a flash burst to be lit properly
I don't see another scenario where I would like to shoot HDR+flash

This kind of scenario is not a brain breaker...
I shot often such scene with my old D70 and one (up to 5x) SB26
Well, I had to go an "old school" way. But it has worked, even if not quite simple:
a) 3 images "identical scene framing" without flash but varying exposure
b) the last one frame=the same as the 3rd but only added the flash burst to lit the main subject
c) merge all 4 frames...
Et voilà...short described.

I simply tought, "oh, pretty nice...this D7200 has a "smart" feature...it is able to take ONE picture and turns it as a "HDR-treated" image!Pully fine...that will save a bit time...no post-treat' afterwards.

So, I tought "if the camera can shoot 1 frame of this "complicate" background and can "render" quickly 1 picture properly treated as "HDR"...so it is great...and if the foreground remains to dark, let's add simply a burst while shooting that "HDR" picture.

This resumes exactly how I came to this post. Now I know (Nikon said) the story is not that simple.
I'm only a bit disappointed because I hopped something else, but that is not a drama!
I find this D7200 really is a great camera.

OK, Sorry to have "stolen" Your time...(shame on me and my descendants)

By the way...speaking of the AF...do You press halfway the shutter release to nail the focus OR do You press the "AE-L/AF-L" button?(back button focus)

Again thank You for all Your inputs

Gene51 Loc: Yonkers, NY, now in LSD (LowerSlowerDelaware)

Vous rendez cela plus compliqué que nécessaire!

Below is a single image taken with a bridge camera, shot as raw. The first frame shows the image as it was shot with no adjustments. The second image shows the result after just adjusting shadows and highlights, and black and white clipping points. No HDR processing was used - just the adjustment sliders in Capture One Pro.

In the olden days of digital (about 10 yrs ago), this would have required multiple stacked exposure HDR processing.

I can't tell you what adding a flash would have done for this picture, other than really mess up the ambient lighting and make the shot, which was just a grab shot to illustrate how exposing to the right (ETTR) works to maximize dynamic range when shooting raw.

I disable focus on half press of shutter for most shooting. I do turn it on when I shoot wildlife. And I like to focus manually for landscapes, bypassing AF altogether.

Vous pouvez voir une partie de mon matériel ici - https://www.flickr.com/photos/gene_lugo/

(Download)


(Download)

Boris77

Answers seem obvious:
You only get so much bang for a buck.
Nikon likes things to work predictively, so customers do not complain.
Function you want not easy to program into the camera to work in a useful predictable manner.
Function you want is basically the same as the function that HDR performs-thus not a salable feature.
Function you want can be done via separate exposures, solving flash limitation problem.
Standard cameras do not contain powerful flash units.
Good that you read the manual.
Boris