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Interesting Experiment Related to Equipment Upgrades and Updates
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Jun 12, 2020 08:08:38   #
CHG_CANON Loc: the Windy City
 
Nothing is as cruel as the bad luck of using the wrong camera.

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Jun 12, 2020 08:27:17   #
ELNikkor
 
When my early-20's son went from GH4 (mostly 4K video) to Nikon 35AF One Touch film stills, he began wishing for a Leica M3 with a Summicron 50. I asked him if he was willing to spend $3,000 to find out it wasn't the camera. He's mellowed a bit about "needing" other equipment. My D40 in 2008 was awesome as my first digital, but, alas, did not have video. The D5100 took care of that deficiency in 2012, but it didn't have the low-light abilities of the D750, which replaced it in 2017. Perhaps in 2023, a mirrorless with fast, accurate eye-focus, IBIS, focus stacking, photo stitching, and .265 rated slow-mo video will be the final iteration of my "needs"...

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Jun 12, 2020 09:01:20   #
SuperflyTNT Loc: Manassas VA
 
Often on here people will post about upgrading and there’s always a handful that question why and go on about how newer equipment won’t necessarily improve their work. As you’ve found out it’s not always about just improving the results, it’s about improving the process. Often the upgrade isn’t about IQ, it’s better ergonomics, better features. My D7200 provides superb images but I got a D500 for the faster autofocus and huge buffer. I got the Z7 for all of the advantages mirrorless provides. Some of my favorite images are from my old D40, but I’ve gotten many images since that I couldn’t have with that equipment.

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Jun 12, 2020 09:35:38   #
DirtFarmer Loc: Escaped from the NYC area, back to MA
 
Jeffcs wrote:
When it comes to tools, generally it is the operator, photographer in this case...


It's just like driving a car. The biggest cause of accidents is the nut that holds the wheel.

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Jun 12, 2020 09:41:01   #
lamiaceae Loc: San Luis Obispo County, CA
 
Seeing as I am a hobbyist without the budget of Bill Gates, and I usually display my photos as prints of no more than 8x12" in 11x14" frames due to space constraints in my home, I don't need huge Pixel counts. Most of my DSLR images were shot with 14 and 16 MP Pentax DSLRs. I do own a newer one, a 24 MP K-3, but it is my least favorite as it has poor low light performance and is more confusing to use. I as of late reserve the 24MP for close-ups and macro use. With my arthritic hands a heavy Full frame is out of the question, though I have been tempted my a Pentax K-1 or K-1II a couple times. Also I also struggle with the menus of a Fujifilm digital. For the medium format I can only dream about I have to settle for my two film 4x5" cameras (with set up help from my wife). Edward Weston shot with large format film, so what is there for me to feel bad about not having the cash or strength today for 36 to 50 MP Full Frames.

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Jun 12, 2020 09:56:11   #
camerapapi Loc: Miami, Fl.
 
When I have offered my opinions to those in need of an upgrade I have always asked if the present camera is not doing the job. I will set aside those who want a new camera, those who have an older camera and feel the need for something new. Within this category are those who have money to burn and those whose cameras are doing the job for them but they feel the need to "upgrade."

The D300 was an excellent tool at the time. For those of us that have been shooting with cameras with less pixels we thought that more megapixels was the answer for better images. To many of us it was a surprise to see that the new camera was not that different in image quality to what we had before. Lots of bells and whistles yes but better image quality no and noise is not included here. In the case of the OP he was working a lot in low light and obviously a more modern full frame camera was more capable of better low light performance. That is similar to a person who shoots action and wildlife often and his present camera is lacking in buffer size, fast AF and rapid firing.

I own the Nikon 18-200 AF-S, VR, a more modern lens than my old 18-70 AF-S from the D70 era. I am using more the 18-70 without VR than the 18-200 and understand the AF motor of my 18-70 is not working. In my opinion the 18-200 VR is a very convenient lens and used properly it yields excellent images. None of my cameras are brand new and I did not buy them new either. A couple of them are refurbs and the others bought used. Except for the Olympus bodies the technology in the others, all Nikon bodies, is as old as I am. For my type of photography I do not feel limited at all and in regard to image quality I get as good images from my 17 MP. D7000 as I get from my full frame the D610 with 24 Mp. I have never had the need to go beyond 20-30 inches with my enlargements, I did that only once and the file was from the Nikon D2H that had only 4.1 Mp. My enlargements are usually 12x18 inches and all of the cameras I own are very capable of showing excellent resolution and details. If my needs were different then a new camera would be in order.

I do believe a lot in technology but I also believe in the person behind the camera. I could have a Hasselblad and I bet my images are not going to be much different than what they are now. A new camera with all of the technology available at the moment most probably will make my job easier but will never make me a better photographer. My opinion is that each one of us should use what makes us comfortable regardless of the age of the camera. If the camera is not doing the job then it is time to get something else. If the person buying wants to have a new camera for me that is perfectly fine specially if there is enough money to burn.

I have never insulted anyone who posted the need of buying something new. We are all different.

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Jun 12, 2020 10:00:52   #
uhaas2009
 
Are you beating yourself.......The 850 is a beauty. I love my 810 worth every penny. With the 810 I don’t look the technical aspect anymore I look where is my light, shadow, and what can I change to create a better image.

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Jun 12, 2020 10:01:01   #
maxlieberman Loc: 19027
 
My D300 has none of the failings and disappointments that you cite, even with my older Sigma 18-300 lens. I usually use my D7500 or D-7100, but still get great results from my D300.

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Jun 12, 2020 10:08:40   #
Festus Loc: North Dakota
 
DirtFarmer wrote:
I got a D200 in 2005 and since it was my first DSLR, it was not only the best thing since sliced bread, it was the best thing since bread.

Over a couple years I started to chafe over some of the limitations, particularly low light capabilities since I did a lot of indoor shots. So in 2008 I got a D3.

The world opened up and suddenly the D3 was the best thing since bread with jam. The D200 got used occasionally for studio use (it had a built-in flash that could command an off-camera speedlight). Eventually I got a second speedlight and the D200 sat on the shelf for several years. I eventually donated it to a kid who wanted to take photos (along with the 18-200 lens).

I can't say the D3 made me a better photographer. That probably hasn't happened yet, even with a D4 and D5 and D800e. Maybe the D850 will do it?

Vive la GAS!!!
I got a D200 in 2005 and since it was my first DSL... (show quote)


I would go for the D6 or D880!

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Jun 12, 2020 10:23:16   #
Harry0 Loc: Gardena, Cal
 
i agree with the OP. Mostly.
I started with film in the '50s.Quickly learned to like what I got; and better get what I like.
My 6mp Canon was magical. First wedding- over 600 pictures! Wowza!
Then I got the Nikon D80 from my pro-er buddy. Then the D200. They're the same camera, by the way.
i still have them. If the lens is good and the prints are up to 8x10, that D80 is magic again. Still.
I'm shooting a D600 refurb these days. It makes it a lot easier to get better shots. IF i do my part.
Compose. Then focus. Then shoot. I shoot a little less, I shoot a little better. Like film.

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Jun 12, 2020 10:28:17   #
larryepage Loc: North Texas area
 
Thanks to those who have responded so far...both those who have voiced some level of agreement and those who feel differently. And a special thank you to those who have pointed out that equipment can improve the process even if it does not immediately improve the images. My personal experience is that a better process leads to better images. For instance, those of you who shoot sports or birds in flight would have a much harder time capturing the critical moment with a camera which has a built-in delay in the shutter release cycle than with one which does not have that delay. Similar limitations might exist around continuous frame rate or low light performance. All of these process capabilities are mostly separate from the knowledge, judgement, and skill of the photographer until the point that they limit the application of that knowledge, judgement, and skill. Then they become extremely important.

By the way...it's not just us as photographers. Since I have returned to education, I have become very aware of one of the other "great lies" of our current society. It's the one that says, "You can be anything that you want to be." That sounds great, but it's just not always true. An example, you say? Since adolescence, I have been 6'2" tall. My ideal weight is somewhere around 185 pounds. (Yes...I weigh more than that now.) It has never mattered whether I might really like horses, speed, and competition. There is no way that I could ever have been a jockey. Never could have happened. Just don't meet the hard and fast requirements. The trick is to be encouraging without misleading those around us.

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Jun 12, 2020 10:36:10   #
rehess Loc: South Bend, Indiana, USA
 
w00dy4012 wrote:
It's not the equipment you use, but how well you use the equipment you have.

As the OP learned, this is not usually true.
When I switched from a Pentax K-30 to a Pentax KP, I was thrilled by the doors opened by a much higher useful ISO setting; those who talk about getting good photos from any camera are only focusing on routine settings - once you move to 'trying situations', modern equipment will enable photographs that the old equipment just plain could not handle.

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Jun 12, 2020 10:51:44   #
Architect1776 Loc: In my mind
 
larryepage wrote:
I have taken quite a bit of heat over the past couple of weeks or so related to comments I've made in response to folks who have asked about updating or upgrading equipment. As a retired engineer I am fully aware that there are times when my comments and suggestions come from a different direction from what seems like the main current here, but that doesn't necessarily mean that they are not valid. It is never my intent, however, to provide any suggestion that is blatantly in error (which I was recently accused of doing) or leading anyone down a wrong path. For that reason, I rarely provide anything but very general comments around equipment which I have not personally used, nor do I ever tell anyone that they should buy <this> or <that> specific piece of equipment, even if it is something that I own and have significant experience and knowledge about. Also for that reason, I decided to conduct a personal experiment to see if my thinking had gone afoul or awry somewhere along the way. The results, which were more than a little bit interesting and surprising to me, are summarized here.

Before I get into specifics, I'd like to reference a well-known story. It's about frog and a big pot of hot water. It seems that when the frog jumped into the pot which contained hot water, he knew immediately that he was in trouble, jumped out of the pot, and life continued just fine, once the frog recovered from the realization that he had come very close to death. On a different day, however, the frog visited the pot again. Since frogs don't have good memories, he jumped in once again. This time, the water was cold, so he chose to stay there enjoying his afternoon. At some point, however, someone came in and (hopefully) without knowing that the frog was in the pot, lit the burner under it. The water warmed slowly, and the frog, unable to sense the gradual change in the temperature of the water, slowly cooked in his own swimming pool. I'll be honest...I've never tried this, and have no intention to do so. I don't know if things would really happen this way or not. But presuming that they would, the story illustrates something that is true...gradual change can go undetected, resulting in our sometimes suddenly finding ourselves somewhere we didn't realize that we were going. To an extent, this happened to me during this experiment.

My methodology this week was to intentionally put away all of my most up to date equipment and for the entire week use only two pieces of photographic equipment...my D300s and my 18-200mm f3.5-5.6 AF-S zoom. The D300s undid all of my recent camera updating, and the lens undid all of the upgrading that I have done over the years. The experiment was supposed to run all the way through at least Saturday, but I called it at the end of the day yesterday. Too much limitation and frustration, and I think that I learned everything that I needed to know in 4 days. Today was spent doing a little cleanup and calibration around a few of the observations, just to make certain that there were no special cases reported as generalizations.

Here's what I learned...

First...there were a number of very disappointing revelations about the D300s. I am always sympathetic to budgetary restrictions. Limited discretionary funds kept me shooting a D200 from 2007 until 2017, even though I badly wanted a D300 from the time that model was introduced. But I grew to love the D200, then the D300&D300s when I traded some used equipment for one of each of them. Everyone else had moved on to other cameras, but I was very happy with those. I did move on to a D810, then a D850 and a D500 after my wife got me interested in night sky photography, but I resolved to hang on to at least the D300s just because I loved it and because there might be times when its 12MP images were just right. But my experiment revealed that as much as I liked it, the D300s was pretty deficient in a number of ways.

First, it is limited to ISO 3200 (plus one stop). It's good to maybe 640 or 800. No way it is useful for the low light photography that I've come to enjoy. Second...its dynamic range is quite limited compared to today's cameras. The D850 has a 2.5 stop advantage on dynamic range, and at least a 2.25 stop advantage at all sensitivities above that. The D500 is almost as good. And this difference is quite discernible when comparing images from the two cameras.

Second, it is just slow. And not only autofocus, which worked just fine. The entire cadence of operations when capturing an image is just long and drawn out, regardless of shutter speed. When the shutter release is pressed, each step in capturing the exposure is individually audible...first the mirror moving, then the shutter opening, then the mirror returning. This is completely unlike the single "click" audible when the D500 shutter is released.

Finally, image quality is just disappointing (and not just resolution). I loved this camera when I it was my primary. But its images just don't hold up when compared with those from the D500, even when using the admittedly mediocre 18-200mm lens. White areas are not rendered as uniformly white, boundaries between contrasting areas are not rendered well, and halos are visible in light areas adjacent to dark areas (independent of lens choice).

For those of you who are still shooting the D300, the purpose of this experiment is not at all to diminish the value of what you are doing. I was very happy with the images I captured with this camera, and am still glad to have them. Only now, and only going back to the previous images are the shortcomings obvious. I still have no plans to ditch or discard either my D300 or D300s. But once I recover from my newly discovered disappointment, I'm going to have to revisit both my intentions and my strategies.

As for the lens, I'm not sure exactly what to think or what to say. Learning that it is a pretty good general purpose lens on the D500 was pretty encouraging. But seeing the results it provided on the D300s was a major disappointment, because my intent was for it to live on that camera most of the time. And it was a major shock learning that its entire focus range is squeezed between 1.5 feet and 3 feet on the distance scale at 18mm. Again, I'll have to revisit my intentions and strategies.

I want to be very clear here. My intent is absolutely not to cast aspersions on any piece of equipment. My intent was to determine for myself whether I was correct to encourage folks who can do so to be open to updating and upgrading equipment. The technology has advanced a long way in the past 25 years. It has advanced a long way in the past 13 years or so since I got my first digital cameras. It has advanced a long way in the 10 years since the D300 was introduced. I believe that we may be approaching a point at which advances will be quite a bit more gradual.

I had a pretty cool closing paragraph all worked out in my head, but I'll not include it here. Instead, I'll just say that I know that I have written several places about my friend who creates great art with modest materials and supplies. I haven't divulged until now that she would really like to have a camera with additional capabilities. She has several specific reasons behind that desire. I would ask that we be careful telling folks that "It's the photographer, not the camera," or "Learn to use what you have now." I've noticed that it seems to be mostly be photographers with very capable equipment who tell people one or the other of those things.
I have taken quite a bit of heat over the past cou... (show quote)


This is why Architects do not allow engineers to do presentations to clients.


Sometimes we want a new what ever because it is what we want.
Few really NEED a new camera unless there is a reason to increase revenue or get a new revenue stream.
Otherwise it is purely a want and to feel good, nothing more.

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Jun 12, 2020 10:51:56   #
rehess Loc: South Bend, Indiana, USA
 
larryepage wrote:
By the way...it's not just us as photographers. Since I have returned to education, I have become very aware of one of the other "great lies" of our current society. It's the one that says, "You can be anything that you want to be." That sounds great, but it's just not true. An example, you say? Since adolescence, I have been 6'2" tall. My ideal weight is somewhere around 185 pounds. (Yes...I weigh more than that now.) It has never mattered whether I might really like horses, speed, and competition. There is no way that I could ever have been a jockey. Never could have happened. Just don't meet the hard and fast requirements. The trick is to be encouraging without misleading those around us.
By the way...it's not just us as photographers. S... (show quote)

I went to high school with a basketball guard named "Mike Warren".
He was very good, and was recruited by a coach formerly at our high school, a guy named "Johnny Wooden".
His first year at UCLA he set an all-time freshman scoring record .... which lasted an entire year.
He spent his last couple of years passing the ball to Lew Alcindor.
He was told that 5'11" guards were now passe as pro players, but fortunately he had earned a drama degree.
He is an example of someone who was good at one dream, but had to switch at some point to another dream.
I notice that in Wikipedia he is listed as a "retired television actor and former college basketball player"
There is a lesson in this for all of us.

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Jun 12, 2020 11:05:31   #
wapiti Loc: round rock, texas
 
larryepage wrote:
I have taken quite a bit of heat over the past couple of weeks or so related to comments I've made in response to folks who have asked about updating or upgrading equipment. As a retired engineer I am fully aware that there are times when my comments and suggestions come from a different direction from what seems like the main current here, but that doesn't necessarily mean that they are not valid. It is never my intent, however, to provide any suggestion that is blatantly in error (which I was recently accused of doing) or leading anyone down a wrong path. For that reason, I rarely provide anything but very general comments around equipment which I have not personally used, nor do I ever tell anyone that they should buy <this> or <that> specific piece of equipment, even if it is something that I own and have significant experience and knowledge about. Also for that reason, I decided to conduct a personal experiment to see if my thinking had gone afoul or awry somewhere along the way. The results, which were more than a little bit interesting and surprising to me, are summarized here.

Before I get into specifics, I'd like to reference a well-known story. It's about frog and a big pot of hot water. It seems that when the frog jumped into the pot which contained hot water, he knew immediately that he was in trouble, jumped out of the pot, and life continued just fine, once the frog recovered from the realization that he had come very close to death. On a different day, however, the frog visited the pot again. Since frogs don't have good memories, he jumped in once again. This time, the water was cold, so he chose to stay there enjoying his afternoon. At some point, however, someone came in and (hopefully) without knowing that the frog was in the pot, lit the burner under it. The water warmed slowly, and the frog, unable to sense the gradual change in the temperature of the water, slowly cooked in his own swimming pool. I'll be honest...I've never tried this, and have no intention to do so. I don't know if things would really happen this way or not. But presuming that they would, the story illustrates something that is true...gradual change can go undetected, resulting in our sometimes suddenly finding ourselves somewhere we didn't realize that we were going. To an extent, this happened to me during this experiment.

My methodology this week was to intentionally put away all of my most up to date equipment and for the entire week use only two pieces of photographic equipment...my D300s and my 18-200mm f3.5-5.6 AF-S zoom. The D300s undid all of my recent camera updating, and the lens undid all of the upgrading that I have done over the years. The experiment was supposed to run all the way through at least Saturday, but I called it at the end of the day yesterday. Too much limitation and frustration, and I think that I learned everything that I needed to know in 4 days. Today was spent doing a little cleanup and calibration around a few of the observations, just to make certain that there were no special cases reported as generalizations.

Here's what I learned...

First...there were a number of very disappointing revelations about the D300s. I am always sympathetic to budgetary restrictions. Limited discretionary funds kept me shooting a D200 from 2007 until 2017, even though I badly wanted a D300 from the time that model was introduced. But I grew to love the D200, then the D300&D300s when I traded some used equipment for one of each of them. Everyone else had moved on to other cameras, but I was very happy with those. I did move on to a D810, then a D850 and a D500 after my wife got me interested in night sky photography, but I resolved to hang on to at least the D300s just because I loved it and because there might be times when its 12MP images were just right. But my experiment revealed that as much as I liked it, the D300s was pretty deficient in a number of ways.

First, it is limited to ISO 3200 (plus one stop). It's good to maybe 640 or 800. No way it is useful for the low light photography that I've come to enjoy. Second...its dynamic range is quite limited compared to today's cameras. The D850 has a 2.5 stop advantage on dynamic range, and at least a 2.25 stop advantage at all sensitivities above that. The D500 is almost as good. And this difference is quite discernible when comparing images from the two cameras.

Second, it is just slow. And not only autofocus, which worked just fine. The entire cadence of operations when capturing an image is just long and drawn out, regardless of shutter speed. When the shutter release is pressed, each step in capturing the exposure is individually audible...first the mirror moving, then the shutter opening, then the mirror returning. This is completely unlike the single "click" audible when the D500 shutter is released.

Finally, image quality is just disappointing (and not just resolution). I loved this camera when I it was my primary. But its images just don't hold up when compared with those from the D500, even when using the admittedly mediocre 18-200mm lens. White areas are not rendered as uniformly white, boundaries between contrasting areas are not rendered well, and halos are visible in light areas adjacent to dark areas (independent of lens choice).

For those of you who are still shooting the D300, the purpose of this experiment is not at all to diminish the value of what you are doing. I was very happy with the images I captured with this camera, and am still glad to have them. Only now, and only going back to the previous images are the shortcomings obvious. I still have no plans to ditch or discard either my D300 or D300s. But once I recover from my newly discovered disappointment, I'm going to have to revisit both my intentions and my strategies.

As for the lens, I'm not sure exactly what to think or what to say. Learning that it is a pretty good general purpose lens on the D500 was pretty encouraging. But seeing the results it provided on the D300s was a major disappointment, because my intent was for it to live on that camera most of the time. And it was a major shock learning that its entire focus range is squeezed between 1.5 feet and 3 feet on the distance scale at 18mm. Again, I'll have to revisit my intentions and strategies.

I want to be very clear here. My intent is absolutely not to cast aspersions on any piece of equipment. My intent was to determine for myself whether I was correct to encourage folks who can do so to be open to updating and upgrading equipment. The technology has advanced a long way in the past 25 years. It has advanced a long way in the past 13 years or so since I got my first digital cameras. It has advanced a long way in the 10 years since the D300 was introduced. I believe that we may be approaching a point at which advances will be quite a bit more gradual.

I had a pretty cool closing paragraph all worked out in my head, but I'll not include it here. Instead, I'll just say that I know that I have written several places about my friend who creates great art with modest materials and supplies. I haven't divulged until now that she would really like to have a camera with additional capabilities. She has several specific reasons behind that desire. I would ask that we be careful telling folks that "It's the photographer, not the camera," or "Learn to use what you have now." I've noticed that it seems to be mostly be photographers with very capable equipment who tell people one or the other of those things.
I have taken quite a bit of heat over the past cou... (show quote)



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