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FX ON DX
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Jan 29, 2020 06:50:41   #
jerryc41 Loc: Catskill Mts of NY
 
http://www.diyphotography.net/crop-vs-full-frame-sensor-different-cameras-perform-lens/
http://www.nikonusa.com/en/learn-and-explore/article/g588ouey/the-dx-and-fx-formats.html
https://www.borrowlenses.com/blog/new-dslr-owners-what-you-must-know-about-full-frame-vs-crop-frame-sensors-before-choosing-a-lens/
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/explora/photography/features/dx-vs-fx-its-not-debate-its-choice
http://www.lightstalking.com/cameras-sensor-size/
http://neilvn.com/tangents/full-frame-vs-crop-sensor-cameras-comparison-depth-of-field/

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Jan 29, 2020 06:55:55   #
david vt Loc: Vermont
 
@Gene51. Very technical post. Unfortunately, too technical for me (or not yet enough coffee this AM).

To summarize the original comment that prompted your explanation is the question. To wit: If I had 2 lens for my DX camera body, both the same length, one an FX lens and one a DX version. The comment implied that, all else bring equal, I would get a less perfect image using the FX lens on the DX body than the DX lens on that same body. Seems to go again other comments, both in the thread (and many others over the last several years). Can you shed a little more light on this?

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Jan 29, 2020 07:02:38   #
billnikon Loc: Pennsylvania/Ohio/Florida/Maui/Oregon/Vermont
 
kfoo wrote:
What are the disadvantages or advantages of using an FX lens on a DX body? Thanks in advance.


Advantage. You will use the center of the lens, the sharpest part of any lens.
Disadvantage. With the multiplication factor your wide angle lenses will not be as wide as they were on a FF body.
Advantage. You telephoto lenses will reach further and you will be able to put more EFFECTIVE MEGAPIXELS on your main subject.

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Jan 29, 2020 07:10:34   #
mborn Loc: Massachusetts
 
Gene51 wrote:
I debunked that myth from Tony Northrup years ago.

What the P-MP score means is that on any given camera a score that equals the actual pixel count is a theoretically "perfect" lens. When any lens is put on a camera, there will a perceptual "loss" of resolution, or more accurately, it will not allow the camera to display as sharp an image as the "perfect" lens.

For example - the excellent full frame Sigma Art 85mm F1.4 scores as follows:

D810 (36.3mp sensor FX) = 36 P-Mp
D300S (12.3mp DX) = 11 P-Mp
D500 (20.9 mp DX)) = 19 P-Mp

This lens works well with high mp and low mp cameras, regardless of sensor size.

A lens that is less "sharp" like a full frame Sigma 150-500 tests as follows:

D700 (12.3mp FX) = 7 P-Mp
D300S (12.3mp DX) = 5 P-Mp
D500 (20.9 mp DX) = 6 P-Mp

And last but not least - a DX lens like a Sigma 18-200 shows the following:

D300S (12.3mp DX) = 5 P-Mp
D500 (20.9 mp DX) = 6 P-Mp
D5600 (24.2mp DX) = 6 P-Mp

So that lens does not really perform well on high MP sensors - higher resolution sensors are not going to produce perceptually sharper images the lens is clearly the limiting factor.

The inference here is that if you have a 150-500 it will perform best on a D700, returning a P-Mp score of 7 against a possible 12.3 mp or 57% of the sharpness of a perfect lens. The worst case would be a DX camera with a dense sensor, the D500 at 20.9 mp, only shows a P-Mp of 6 against a possible 20.9mp, or 29% of a perfect lens.

The minor differences you are seeing between formats have to do with the print magnification factor. Smaller sensors have to be magnified (enlarged) more so images will appear less sharp.

The correct way to use this P-Mp score is to see which lenses will provide the most resolution on a given body, comparing the P-Mp to the actual Mp.

Your assumption that somehow an FX lens that shows a lower P-Mp score on a DX body isn't taking into account pixel density, and is ignoring the magnification factor.

FWIW, there is no lens that tests at 24 P-Mp on a DX body - the closest is the Sigma Art 85, which shows 20 P-mp on a D5600 or 83% of it's resolution. The same lens on a D810 (with a slightly lower pixel density) is 36 P-Mp - or 99% of it's resolution. You are not likely to see any lens surpass the performance of this lens on any body, and on a 12.3mp DX camera a score of 11 P-Mp or 89% is outstanding, as is the 83% on the D5600.

This is not an easy metric to wrap your head around - I had several lengthy email exchanges with the techs at DXO Mark and this represents how best to make sense of it all.
I debunked that myth from Tony Northrup years ago.... (show quote)



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Jan 29, 2020 07:21:59   #
SuperflyTNT Loc: Manassas VA
 
Rongnongno wrote:
Advantages = long answers that will not help you.
Differences:
- Wide angles will not work as expected due to the multiplying factor (MF).
- The camera sensor will use the center of the lens so sharper and objects appear closer due to the MF. Side effect, less distortion and less diffraction.


Wide angles, as a matter of fact any focal length, will work exactly as expected. They won’t work any differently than a DX lens of the same focal length.

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Jan 29, 2020 08:35:05   #
Fotomacher Loc: Toronto
 
kfoo wrote:
What are the disadvantages or advantages of using an FX lens on a DX body? Thanks in advance.


I was shooting with both a D300s and a D700 until January 2016. All of my lenses were Nikkor FX f/2.8 or faster (and still are). I found that the advantage was that I could use one lens arsenal for all of my imaging, I benefited from the crop factor on the DX body when using FX glass. I did not lose on the wide side since my wide lens is a Nikkor 17-35mm f/2.8 and when shooting with the D300s, if I wanted wider than (effective) 25.5mm, I just shot 2 images and merged them. I knew I would eventually get a better FX body and did not want to invest any $ in inferior DX lenses.

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Jan 29, 2020 08:58:55   #
mas24 Loc: Southern CA
 
kfoo wrote:
What are the disadvantages or advantages of using an FX lens on a DX body? Thanks in advance.


The advantages are that it is OK to use FX lenses on a DX camera. The disadvantages are the high prices of most FX lenses. The least expensive, probably being the FX 50mm f1.8G.

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Jan 29, 2020 09:14:42   #
Rongnongno Loc: FL
 
On my statement citing the difference with wide angles.

Due to the MP one cannot find an FX equivalent lens for a given focal length. An 18mm by example would have to be replaced by an expensive 10/12mm when a 35mm is easily replaced by a cheaper 24mm. This where the difference lies, it has nothing to do with the lens itself but finding a 'replacement' for it.

There are other issues related to the lens elements too but that is not the subject here.

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Jan 29, 2020 09:15:45   #
selmslie Loc: Fernandina Beach, FL, USA
 
Gene51 wrote:
I debunked that myth from Tony Northrup years ago.

What the P-MP score means is that on any given camera a score that equals the actual pixel count is a theoretically "perfect" lens. When any lens is put on a camera, there will a perceptual "loss" of resolution, or more accurately, it will not allow the camera to display as sharp an image as the "perfect" lens. ....

Although we all like to disbelieve much of what Tony Northrup says, there is some common ground in both views.

Just as you can't determine the resolution a sensor without using a perfect lens (one with infinite resolution), the only way to measure the resolution of the lens is with a "perfect" sensor. The problem is that today's full frame digital sensor's don't go much farther than 50 MP. But there are films (like Adox CMS 20) that far exceed the resolution of any digital sensor and they might be a better way to measure lens resolution.

We think of resolution in terms of megapixels for sensors and line pairs per millimeter for lenses. DxOMark has tried to combine the two related concepts by coming up with perceptual megapixels.

But if you look at it from the lens's perspective, both can also be stated as line pairs per millimeter. In that case we already have a way to calculate the combined system resolution.

If you want to delve into the math, take a look at Photographic System Resolution. It shows that the best full frame lens with the best possible lens (nearly 67 line pairs per millimeter) will provide about 1700 lines of resolution on a 24MP FX sensor but only about 1460 lines on a DX sensor. That same lens will provide about 2090 lines on a 45.7 MP sensor.

However a lower resolution (48 line pairs per millimeter) medium format lens will provide more than 2200 lines on a 50 MP 33x44 mm sensor.

The bottom line is that, in order to match the performance of a good full frame lens on a full frame camera, a DX lens needs to exceed the resolution of the full frame lens bu a significant amount.

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Jan 29, 2020 09:39:38   #
olemikey Loc: 6 mile creek, Spacecoast Florida
 
Have been into (inside) enough of both to say (my opinion) the FX are (generally/almost always) better made/better build, and yes often bigger/heavier, and yes, more expensive. One happy place for me, metal lens mounts, hooray, DX lenses with their plastic "breakaway" mounts, thumbs down. If I can afford it, I always go for the FX....when I get to where I can't lift the extra pound or so and control it for a shot, then maybe I'll appreciate DX more ...... Gene51, the P-MP score info is very interesting...do like the scores on that Sigma Art 85! And the added explanation helps.....backs up what I think I see when looking at results DX versus FX, same sensor.
Again, just my opinion, YMMV.

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Jan 29, 2020 10:14:59   #
PHRubin Loc: Nashville TN USA
 
rehess wrote:
I am not certain what you expect of a wide angle lens; a 18mm FX lens works exactly the same on a "APS-C" camera as a 18mm DX lens does.


The lens works the same, the result is different, but you knew that.

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Jan 29, 2020 11:42:20   #
ronpier Loc: Poland Ohio
 
kfoo wrote:
What are the disadvantages or advantages of using an FX lens on a DX body? Thanks in advance.


The advantage is that most of my FX lenses work IMO very well with excellent IQ on all of my three DX cameras along with their DX lenses. The only exception is the DX AF P lenses only auto focus on my D3400 and my FX AF lenses do not Auto focus on the D3400. With the combination of FX and DX lenses I have a focal range of 12-300mm with a crop factor of 18-450mm. Good to go barring any GAS attack.

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Jan 29, 2020 12:18:22   #
ButchS Loc: Spokane, WA
 
kfoo wrote:
What are the disadvantages or advantages of using an FX lens on a DX body? Thanks in advance.


The only advantage is that, when you upgrade to FX, you can still keep using your existing lenses.

The only disadvantage is that FX lenses tend to be more expensive than the equivalent DX lens.

Otherwise it's a moot point.

I have over a dozen "Full Frame" AF lenses from my film shooting days. When I switched to digital, the first Nikon digital cameras were DX, though they hadn't started using that designation yet. But all my lenses worked fine. Later when I upgraded to FX digital, all my lenses still all worked just fine.

I have about a dozen AF Nikon lenses and also about a dozen MF Nikon lenses. I haven't had to buy any new lenses for decades.

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Jan 29, 2020 12:29:59   #
rehess Loc: South Bend, Indiana, USA
 
ronpier wrote:
The advantage is that most of my FX lenses work IMO very well with excellent IQ on all of my three DX cameras along with their DX lenses. The only exception is the DX AF P lenses only auto focus on my D3400 and my FX AF lenses do not Auto focus on the D3400. With the combination of FX and DX lenses I have a focal range of 12-300mm with a crop factor of 18-450mm. Good to go barring any GAS attack.
Do your FX lenses have a focus motor, or do they depend on body having one??

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Jan 29, 2020 12:33:32   #
Harry0 Loc: Gardena, Cal
 
I invested 2 much $ in FX lenses for my Nikon Fs, and my pair of EMs.
My D610 seems to like them OK.
They worked well as I worked my way up (D80 to D7100).

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