Wanderer2 Loc: Colorado Rocky Mountains

In a previous post on this thread I expressed concern that some of the criticisms made of Affinity Photo were not entirely accurate, which was rebutted by the posters. Feeling my level of knowledge and expertise was not adequate to debate this on my own, especially against such articulate postings as some on this subject were, I researched these topics in Affinity Photos (AP) workbook.

The claim was made that AP is destructive, both fully and partially. The following is the info on this in the workbook on page 5:

"Non-destructive adjustments
With a huge library of adjustment layers for tonal and colour correction - combined with automatic masking from selections - Affinity Photo offers the most versatile adjustment control that never destroys your basic image. You can return to your adjustment at any time to either modify or remove it." Further, on page 431 it is stated: "All adjustments are non-destructive as they are independent layers. This means I can alter my adjustments at a later time - my image layer will remain unaffected throughout."

Another claim made was that AP does not do "HSL" which I believe means hue, saturation, and luminosity. This is clearly incorrect. This is covered on page 100 and on several other pages. "On the layers panel select adjustments and then HSL in the submenu." There are sliders for hue, saturation, and luminosity shifts in this submenu.

ABIR, there was another claim made of a supposed deficiency in AP in the same post as the two above but I can't find that post and do not recall the topic. I have seen it even questioned if AF develops raw files or has layers, etc. on other forums! Of course it does.

The statement was also made in posts that AP is a memory hog. I can't find any specifications on this in the workbook. My laptop has a modest memory capacity and it handles AP well. I did find the following needed specifications on Affinity's website:

"PC Memory:
4GB RAM (8GB RAM recommended)
Hard Drive Space:
718MB of available space; more during installation
Monitor resolution
1280 x 786 display size (at 100% scaling) or better
Additional disk resources and memory are required when editing large and/or complex documents."

I would comment that AP isn't the fastest processing program I have ever used but it isn't agonizingly slow, even on my old computer.

By no means would I claim AP "is the way to go." for everyone. It is for me because I've found it the easiest to learn of the several programs I've tried and I find it to be a very strong program with, I believe, every feature I will possibly need. But I do doubt any program of this sort "is the way to go" for everyone. But I did not want what I view as inaccuracies about it to cause misimpressions that would prevent anyone who might be inclined to try (for free) what I believe to be an excellent program for many.

Ysarex Loc: St. Louis

I made some of the comments you refer to about Affinity. They weren't in this thread however. They were in this thread: https://www.uglyhedgehog.com/t-605064-1.html#10398297

Please note that the topic of that thread is Raw Processors. In my comments I was careful to say; "It's a great raster editor and a terrific price but it has multiple raw processing flaws that I consider show stoppers." Please note the text I just made bold. I further clarified my comments; "My comments apply to Affinity's raw Develop Persona only." Please note the word "only" there.

I said Affinity's raw processing is forced destructive. I was then and I remain correct. The term destructive carries two meaning for us when talking about an image processing workflow. We obviously do not want to lose our camera original by overwriting it. Affinity is fine in that regard. However we also use the term destructive if the software does not save out work such that we are forced to repeat or do the work over should we want to make a revision. Affinity's Raw Develop Persona in that context is forced destructive. Any work you do in the Raw Develop Persona with a raw file is discarded when you convert the raw file to an RGB image and move to the Photo Pesona. Discarding your work is destructive of your work.

I said Affinity's Raw Develop Persona lacks an HSL adjustment. I am correct. Having an HSL adjustment available in the Photo Persona is no consolation because by then it's too late. An HSL adjustment tool is needed in the Raw Develop Persona.

I also noted that in the Raw Develop Persona Affinity does not attempt highlight reconstruction. And I am correct about that as well.

If you need me to go through that with you in detail so you can understand get a raw file and get back to me and I'll be happy to walk you through it.

Joe

mwsilvers Loc: Central New Jersey

I believe many of the negative comments in this thread were geared specifically to the Develop persona and what happens to your raw edits once you transfer your file to the Photo persona. Therein lies the concern about non destructive raw editing compared to competitive raw processors. Is there an HSL feature in the Develop persona? Most, if not almost all, good raw processors have that functionality as well. There are a large number of powerful features that are available in most of the better raw converters/processors that are not yet available in Affinity's Develop Persona.

Affinity is a great program with a huge amount of potential, but currently its Develop persona needs some work to bring it up to par with some of its competition, most notably ACR, Lightroom, ON1, Capture One Pro, and DXO PhotoLab Elite. For instance, many, if not most, users of Lightroom and PhotoShop regularly report that they perform the majority of their edits in Lightroom before exporting the images to PhotoShop for final processing, after which the updated images are returned to Lightroom. The Develop persona is just limited in scope and doesn't adequately meet the needs of most experienced raw shooters. Hopefully future versions of Develop will match the competition..

srt101fan

Joe, an excellent explanation of the issues, except for your insistence that "your work is discarded" when you move the image from the Develop to the Photo Persona.

I don't think Wanderer2 got confused by your "discarded work" language; he/she simply didn't realize that the Workbook description he cited applied only to the Photo Persona.

However, I do believe that others have gotten confused by your wording. Your work in the Develop Module is NOT discarded when you move the image to the Photo Persona. It is incorporated ("baked into") the image file, but in a way that the individual editing steps you took in Develop are no longer separately identifiable and accessible for redo.

Posted in the spirit of furthering understanding of Affinity and is not intended to be argumentative.... 😊

Ysarex Loc: St. Louis

How about your work in the Develop Persona is used to create the RGB image that's handed off to the Photo Persona and then it's discarded (it is not saved such that you can return). The first time I encountered this concern before I personally purchased Affinity the poster on DPReview wanted to know if Affinity was still forced destructive. That also sounds pretty bad but it's also accurate.

I can understand how for many hobbyists this behavior by AP may not be a big deal. Looking at it another way however you can ask what other raw converters do the same and the answer is none. AP in this regard is unique.

Joe

srt101fan

Better wording! 😀

Wanderer2 Loc: Colorado Rocky Mountains

Joe, I continued to be confused by your criticisms of Affinity Photo, and your insistence that you are correct in each of the three criticisms, as detailed in your posts immediately above. To summarize your criticisms: 1. AP is "forced desructive", 2. The Develop Persona "lacks an HSL adjustment", and 3. The Develop Persona "does not attempt highlight reconstruction." All three of these relate to the Develop Persona. These criticisms simply are not consistent with my experience with AP, and even though I recognize I am at the low amateur level of expertise, much below yours, I cannot agree that these criticisms are valid.

In an attempt to understand the criticisms yesterday I first processed a newly taken image, importing the Raw file into AP and starting the Develop Persona. This proceeded normally and the file was developed and prepared for editing as the Develop Persona is supposed to do. I then did quite a number of edits without changing any Persona setting and had no problems. These included HSL and highlights which were done easily and normally, as were all of the edits. I was able to go back and change or delete any of the edits already made during this entire process. After finishing I saved the work as both AF and Tiff files and exported them. I then imported the edited files back into AP and was able to again make any changes or deletions of the edits previously done without any need to go back to the beginning, that is to the unedited file. I of course saved a copy of the original, unedited file elsewhere in my computer and also checked to make sure it was still editable, which it was. In short, I was able to edit the file without being able to detect destruction and to adjust HSL and highlights without problems.

Next I went back to the Affinity Photo workbook and reviewed the program and how it works since I had not done that since immediately after purchasing it about 1 1/2 years ago. This led me to the conclusion that, Joe, you have a mis-impression about the role of the Develop Persona in AP. It's main function is developing raw files in preparation for their editing, not primarily editing itself as you seem to expect. To quote from the workbook: "Raw files must be developed first before they can be viewed or edited. When Raw files are opened in Affinity Photo the interface switches to the Develop Persona, a dedicated workspace exclusively for this task." (page 87). Some "adjustments and filters" can be applied in the Develop Persona, but to quote: "Photo Persona is where you'll be doing the bulk of your image editing work. It's the default persona where you'll find all of your brush selection, fill, healing, gradient and vector tools." (page 19). There are many tools available in the Photo Persona that are not in the Develop Persona.

Thus, the fact that HSL and highlight adjustments are not made in the Develop Persona is the way AP was designed to work and I cannot see that this causes any difficulties as the Develop and Photo Personas work together seamlessly. And, as described above, edits can be manipulated at any point in the editing process, or after it's completed, and I thus cannot see how AP has "forced destruction."

You have damned AP with faint praise, as the old expression goes, stating it has many good qualities but these three fatal flaws, as you see it, prevent it for being useful for anyone except low level amateurs. I am in no way personally offended by this claim since I am exactly that, but I do believe that substantial numbers of advanced amateurs and possibly even some pros use AP. Some of these can be read on the Affinity Forum, which is an excellent source of support for the program. I don't know what your source is for the claim that very few advanced amateurs or pros actually use the program but after reading that very few of us would be interested in purchasing AP, thus harming it's sales unjustly, IMO.

Sorry for the length of this post but this is a very complicated subject, at least for me.

srt101fan

Wanderer2, I don't want to speak for Joe (Ysarex), but here are comments he made in response to questions I raised that you might find interesting. Note his comments about the lack of HSL adjustments in the Affinity Develop module:
https://www.uglyhedgehog.com/t-603643-2.html#10375920

Ysarex Loc: St. Louis

I understand the difficulty and I'll be happy to walk through it with you if you like. Let's start with something you quoted from the workbook: "Raw files must be developed first before they can be viewed or edited. When Raw files are opened in Affinity Photo the interface switches to the Develop Persona, a dedicated workspace exclusively for this task." (page 87). Some "adjustments and filters" can be applied in the Develop Persona, but to quote: "Photo Persona is where you'll be doing the bulk of your image editing work. It's the default persona where you'll find all of your brush selection, fill, healing, gradient and vector tools." (page 19).

Serif is primarily selling a raster image editor -- that would be the Photo Persona. Photoshop is likewise a raster image editor. Both AP and PS are designed to work with RGB image files. In an RGB image each pixel of the photo has a Red, Green, and Blue value that together determine the pixel's color. As such a pixel in an RGB image can be "peachy" orange. A raw file's structure is fundamentally different with each pixel being only red or only green or only blue. So the quote above is correct that raw files must be developed first, and when a raw file is opened it ends up in the Develop Persona which is a workspace exclusively for that task. There are things to do with a raw file that can't be done to an RGB image and vice versa or at least not in the same way.

Now you're getting your info from Serif and it might be fair to say that Serif is a little biased in that the product they sell is a raster editor. That might be why they say; "Photo Persona is where you'll be doing the bulk of your image editing work."

A raster editor needs the image in RGB format. The Develop Persona works with the image as a raw file. When working with raw files editing must be done parametrically. Raw file converters, for example Lightroom, are parametric editors. They work differently than raster editors and must work parametrically with raw files. A parametric editor basically creates and saves an instruction list -- a recipe, of what to do to convert a raw file into an RGB image. What Affinity is doing in the Develop Persona is parametric.

The corollary using Photoshop is ACR (Adobe Camera Raw) and the same thing happens when a raw file is handed to Photoshop. It opens in ACR and not Photoshop. In ACR the raw file is developed (converted to RGB image) and then transferred to Photoshop proper just as Affinity's Develop Persona develops (converts to RGB image) and then transfers the image to the Photo Persona.

ACR and Affinity's Develop Persona both have to work parametrically with the raw file so that if you make a contrast or WB or highlight etc. change it's in fact recorded into that recipe list. The recipe is applied when you click Develop and do the conversion. ACR saves the recipe list so that if you re-open that raw file all that you did in ACR is saved and reloaded in the recipe. Affinity does not save that recipe list and that's a big deal for many us, because we did that work. And there's the destructive action; our work destroyed. If you re-open a raw file in Affinity you start at scratch as if you're opening it for the first time and that's because Affinity doesn't save any of the parametric work done in the Develop Persona.

If your focus in on using Affinity's raster editor and you don't do much in the Develop Persona then this isn't a big deal. Again worth noting that Affinity is unique here. If you use instead PS then ACR saves all your parametric work. If you use instead ACDSee then all your parametric work is saved. If you use instead DXO Photolab all your parametric work is saved and I can make this a very long list with only Affinity odd out.

For many of us what Affinity is doing is a big deal. I want all of my work saved. I want to be able to return to the raw file and have my previous work with that file available. The fact that the RGB image is saved is not a substitute for saving the parametric work done with the raw file. The reason is because that point of conversion when the raw file is developed into an RGB image is a fundamental transformation. It's like a chemical reaction takes place that turns everything into something else. It's a threshold you can't cross back and forth over.

That's why it matters that an HSL adjustment be available parametrically for use with a raw file. Once the conversion to RGB is done what was possible with an HSL adjustment and raw data is no longer possible with RGB data.

Let's take your second paragraph and go through it piece at a time: "In an attempt to understand the criticisms yesterday I first processed a newly taken image, importing the Raw file into AP and starting the Develop Persona. This proceeded normally and the file was developed and prepared for editing as the Develop Persona is supposed to do. I then did quite a number of edits without changing any Persona setting and had no problems. These included HSL and highlights which were done easily and normally, as were all of the edits. I was able to go back and change or delete any of the edits already made during this entire process. After finishing I saved the work as both AF and Tiff files and exported them. I then imported the edited files back into AP and was able to again make any changes or deletions of the edits previously done without any need to go back to the beginning, that is to the unedited file."

"These included HSL and highlights which were done easily and normally, as were all of the edits." The edits you're performing here are to RGB data in an RGB image. Yes the Photo Persona has an HSL adjustment. But remember from above that I noted the structural differences between an RGB image (each pixel contains three values Red, Green, Blue) and raw data (each pixel is only Red or only Green or only Blue). What's possible with an HSL adjustment is different with those different data sets; HSL doesn't work in the same way with both and it matters. So you were not able to make an HSL edit to data when each pixel was only red or only green or only blue.

"I was able to go back and change or delete any of the edits already made during this entire process." Only in the Photo Persona and only with the RGB image. One of the edits that you had to perform in the Develop Persona was set WB. You either accepted the default or made an adjustment. With the RGB image in the Photo Persona you can't go back and for example add 350 degrees K to the temp. value. You'll find a WB tool in the Photo Persona but again it's not the same thing and doesn't do the same thing. There are fundamental differences between trying to change WB with an RGB image versus raw data. I want to be able to go back to my raw file if I chose and change the WB value I had selected previously. I can do that with any other software except Affinity.

"After finishing I saved the work as both AF and Tiff files and exported them. I then imported the edited files back into AP and was able to again make any changes or deletions of the edits previously done without any need to go back to the beginning...." Absolutely you can save an RGB image file and re-open it and re-edit it as often as you like in the Photo Persona. Remember that all my comments were directed at the Develop Persona. I'm concerned about what's being done with the raw file before the Photo Persona gets it. My comments were about raw files and Affinity's handling of those in the Develop Persona.

Joe

Wanderer2 Loc: Colorado Rocky Mountains

<<Remember that all my comments were directed at the Develop Persona. I'm concerned about what's being done with the raw file before the Photo Persona gets it. My comments were about raw files and Affinity's handling of those in the Develop Persona.>>

And this is the crux of our disagreement, Joe. As I see it you expect the Develop Persona to do functions it isn't designed to do but other parts of AP are, especially the Photo Persona. It doesn't matter to me what part of the program does the work but that it does it well. And as best I can tell, looking at the overall performance of AP and not where it is done, AP does HSL and highlight adjustments very well in my experience, and also is not destructive when the overall performance is considered. And it does a lot of other things well also.

Btw, the Workbook lists the following tools for the Develop Persona:

Red Eye Remaval Tool
Blemish Removal Tool
Overlay Paint Tool (also in the Tone Mapping Persona)
Overlay Erase Tool ( " " " " " " )
Overlay Gradient Tool ( " " " " " " )
Crop Tool
White Balance Tool

And that's all.

OTOH, the Photo Persona lists 20 and it doesn't appear that is a complete list.

Obviously, the AP creators meant what they said that the bulk of the editing was intended to be done in the Photo Persona, not the Develop Persona, and I don't believe that statement is due to bias.

Just wondering why you selected HSL and highlight manipulation to criticize as not being done in the Develop Persona when they are only two of many functions not done in the Develop persona but in the Photo Persona?

So one of my questions is, does the different design of AP from Photoshop and other programs automatically mean the performance is worse and suitable only for lower level amateur users? Or could this newer design instead be an improvement (newer developments often are, after all). In at least one way it certainly is, in my opinion, and that's the ease of learning. And the second is the bargain price. I also believe that Serif has an excellent development team of designers, engineers, etc. and they have the capability to do thinks correctly and innovatively, and AP is the end result of that.

So apparently we will have to agree to disagree, and that's alright. One question for you, and I don't mean this to be negative or sarcastic but I'm just curious: Have you read the Affinity Photo Workbook?

Mike

Ysarex Loc: St. Louis

I expect the Develop Persona to do functions it should do because it does matter whether those functions are applied to raw data versus RGB image data.



To do the work well it matters on which data set you apply which edits.



AP does not do highlight reconstruction at all which is a process that can only be done using raw data. There is no corollary process available for RGB data.



AP does not save any parametric work done in the Develop Persona. That's a fact. Being forced to lose your work is considered destructive.



That's just what's on the toolbar. You also have in the Basic panel

Exposure
Blackpoint
Brightness
Contrast
Clarity
Saturation
White Balance
Shadows/Highlights
Profiles

And then in the Lens Panel

Lens Correction
Chromatic Aberration
Defringe

And then there's the Detail Panel and so forth....



Absolutely -- that's their design model for sure.



Highlight reconstruction not highlight manipulation and I selected those because it really makes a difference if they're done with raw data instead of RGB data. In fact highlight reconstruction can only be done with raw data and it is not available in the Photo Persona.



AP's design is not different from PS. It's a clone of PS and since there are other clones of PS AP isn't doing anything new -- just skipping an important step. AP is in fact a design throwback. It works just like Photoshop worked two decades ago -- not that Photoshop has changed much since then.

But to answer your question: yes, there are some performance issues. They're not huge and AP is a good choice for many amateur users. As a raster editor it can certainly be used professionally. Can I use other software that, for example does accomplish highlight reconstruction, and so get better results than AP, yes I can. Again not too big a deal but some things need to be done with the raw data (and that work should be saved). Working professionally with a raster editor I would happily use Affinity but have my raw conversions handled by other software.



No, it's a throwback design and that may in part be why it's such a great price.



Nope, I'm presenting provable facts. You don't get to agree to disagree about facts. You can say that the facts don't cause problems for you and that's fine. They may cause problems for others and so they should be pointed out for the benefit of others.



No I haven't, but I've spent ample time testing the software and I know what does.

Joe

mwsilvers Loc: Central New Jersey

You state, "This led me to the conclusion that, Joe, you have a mis-impression about the role of the Develop Persona in AP. It's main function is developing raw files in preparation for their editing, not primarily editing itself as you seem to expect."

Therein lies the problem. Affinity, apparently as a result of it limited raw functionality, has compensated by implying that the Develop persona's purpose is only for basic preparation of raw files for the "real" editing in the Photo Persona. They have say that because the Develop Persona is otherwise seriously lacking in functionality found in any of the better raw processors. These days the primary role of a top notch raw processor is to edit raw files as much as possible prior to exporting them to a pixel editor for adjustments more appropriately done there.

Those of us who use raw extensively understand that the main value of raw is the much wider latitude for adjustment using all the original shooting data, and with less noise. The more edits that can be performed on a raw file the better. Almost every other quality raw processor available gives you many more editing options and features. The goal is to get as much done as possible in raw before transferring an image to a pixel editor. The Develop persona is seriously hampered in this regard. Things like highlights, HSL etc. are more appropriately done in a top notch raw editor. As I stated in an earlier post, which you may have missed, Adobe users of Lightroom and PhotoShop have very often stated they make most of their edits to their raw files in Lightroom before exporting those images as tiff files to PhotoShop for edits better suited to be performed there.

Every year the best raw editors include more and more editing features. ON1 does virtually everything directly to raw files, including layers. So does Capture One Pro. DXO PhotoLab has at least 3 or 4 times the raw editing features of the Develop persona. Of course all these edits can be done in a pixel editor like the Photo persona, but as I said above, in a raw editor the range of adjustment is much wider with much less noise, with access to all of the original data and the greater potential for better results. As I've stated many times, Affinity is an excellent program in general and certainly at its price its a bargain. It is unfortunately held back by the Develop persona. In a few years I suspect Develop will mature enough to be more competitive. Right now, the Develop persona is best suited for light or inexperienced raw shooters.

Delderby Loc: Derby UK

I have enjoyed following your discussion, which has helped me to understand some differences in the design of the how and why of high level editors. I have used PhotoPlus, culminating in X8, for years (Serif's last upgrade before introducing AP) and at my level am used to the "develop then edit" methodology, and the principle that RAW enables photographers to decide for themselves on matters of white balance, exposure, highlight recovery, noise reduction and chromatic aberration, and the use of a histogram as an aid to perfect some of these adjustments before converting. Of course, most of these adjustments can be further tweaked after conversion.
Of equal, and perhaps more, importance is the editing of the developed picture, and I sometimes think that the pundits place too much importance on the matters discussed in this topic and not enough to the facilities for high level editing after development.

mwsilvers Loc: Central New Jersey

The best raw editors today are extremely powerful. I use DXO PhotoLab Elite, a raw editor, as my primary editor and am able to generally do all my processing directly to raw files using it. It is a very powerful tool. In the event I need features not available in PhotoLab, which is rare, I use ON1 which also processes all it edits against raw files and contains layers, LUTs, and many other features previously available only in pixel editors. I rarely have the need for a pixel editor these days.

srt101fan

Wanderer2:

I thought Ysarex gave you an excellent tutorial. But apparently you still haven’t tuned into his basic points.

It may be presumptuous of me to try to clarify something said by folks much more knowledgeable than I, but I’m going to do it anyway….. (BTW, I have Affinity, slowly learning, love it; also have the Workbook but temporarily put it aside as I don’t find it that helpful for early stage learning; I’m sold on Affinity Photo Persona but unsure at this point on what to use for RAW development, ergo my interest in Ysarex and mssilvers comments)

In your response to Ysarex’s explanations you said:

“And this is the crux of our disagreement, Joe. As I see it you expect the Develop Persona to do functions it isn't designed to do but other parts of AP are, especially the Photo Persona. It doesn't matter to me what part of the program does the work but that it does it well.”

It DOES apparently matter what part of the program does the work. In the transfer of the processed RAW image from the Development to the Photo Persona, some of the RAW data is eliminated and not available for editing with the Photo Persona tools. Ysarex gave us a good example in the image of the snowman with the red hat (https://www.uglyhedgehog.com/t-603643-2.html#10375920). The Affinity Develop persona baked in a poor rendition of the red hat that could then not be fixed in the Photo Persona. If Affinity had an HSL tool in the Develop Persona, like other RAW processors apparently have, you could have used it to adjust the hat and there would have been no problem.

To me it seems that Joe and mssilvers point is that there are some editing steps that should be done as part of RAW development and not in the Photo Persona when it is too late to get the most out of the image data. So, I have been convinced by Ysarex and mssilvers that, compared to other software, you give up SOME overall editing power when using the Affinity Develop module as the front end for the Photo module.

The real question then is, how significant is this Affinity shortcoming? Only you can answer that, based on the type and level of your work and the level of sophistication you expect from your tools. In my case I am still struggling with basic editing concepts and am far from answering that question for my own work!

Happy editing! (and Joe and mssilvers, please correct me if I've said anything wrong!)