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Stop The Madness!
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Aug 8, 2019 16:10:06   #
Rich1939 Loc: Pike County Penna.
 
E.L.. Shapiro wrote:
Hey, Rich, Thanks for your kind comments and your points of view on the matter.

I agree that some of my attitudes may have become obsolete in this day and age of dreadful politics, some of our "leaders" acting like unruly kindergarten children and so many folks who have not a modicum of kindness and respect.

I started my professional career in photography as an apprentice in a busy studio where the senior photographers and the bosses used me and my work as punching bags- well- so I thought at the time. They were all very critical of my work and pulled no punches int telling me the truth. Once I realized that all these folks were taking out their time to start me off on the right path, I began to crave their critiques. They insisted that I submit prints to professional competition especially the ones where critique was given on poorly scoring entries. I became a "critique junkie" - some would say a glutton for punishment. Long story short, while still in high school, at the age of 16, I was already shooting weddings on weekends and going out on studio (solo) assignments all summer.

I consider giving and receive good critiques one of the most valuable tools in photographic educations and a great resource for anyone who wants to improve their work.

This applies to all kinds of photography- portraiture, commercial work, wildlife and nature, photojournalism, sports/action landscape, abstracts, macro and scientific, street photography...you name it! All of these categories have elements of technical quality, composition, use of light and lighting, viewer impact, theme and storytelling value and more. All of this can be analyzed, criticized, praised, corrected, improved and discussed in a clear, kind and pedagogical manner.

There is yet not old adage about "if you can't take a punch, don't enter the ring"! I don't believe a critic should throw a "punch" at anyone or their work but with some folks, the truth hurts, even if it presented honestly, gently and with good intentions. Perhaps it would be best for those folks to refrain from posting or exhibiting their work where it will be routinely subject to critique or various opinions.

My ethic is simply that false aggrandizement of poor workmanship or craftsmanship is a disservice to the maker. Doig that might reflect poorly on me as the critic, but this is not about my ego. I just don't like misinforming folks in business or in art.

Personally, I am a long-time professional and studio owner but I am crawling in critics. I am subject to expert and totally uneducated criticism on a daily bases. My critics are my clients, art directors, advertising account executives, my staff, the janitor, some of my suppliers, and my wife and kids. Sadly, my mother-in-law and my wife's Aunt Nettie (a prominent portrait photographer) both of whom passed away, were my foremost critics- I miss them! The trick for mental survival and improvement of output is that you take the criticisms or the compliments from whom and where they come and assess them and act on them accordingly.

I don't think professionalism, a willingness to share ideas and techniques, helping folks improve, being kind and courteous, ever go completely out of date or style. It's just that the sometimes go dormant, hibernate or lapse for a while and then they come back. For me, P.C. is a type of lens. My first boss used to say there is an art in beating someone over the head and hugging and kissing them at the same time- it's a matter of balance!
Hey, Rich, Thanks for your kind comments and your ... (show quote)


I would hope that in the business world your story is a familiar one*. We learn when we are taught and also when we teach. Here at the Hog the culture is different as it is more social than anything else. It is in our social environments where the fireworks are most prevalent and that doesn’t look to be changing for the better anytime soon. Least someone try to score political points with my statement; we are all to blame for the current state, either by perpetrating or allowing.

* In my first job,(~ 60 years ago good grief!), after being there for some time I went to my boss and asked how I was doing, how I could do better. He told me, “you know as well as I do what you’re doing right and what you’re doing wrong.” I found a new job within two weeks. Constructive criticism is as important to personal growth as vitamins are to our bodies.
Your first boss was wise. Mine,not so much.

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Aug 9, 2019 10:08:34   #
DWHart24 Loc: Central Florida
 
Feiertag wrote:
I have seen a number of posts on this site that praises or gives credit to lousy captures. Why?

Recently there was a series of a Red Fox. I would have deleted them in a heartbeat. They were total crap from my point of view but people posted that they were lovely, etc. Why would you make a kind comment on something that sucks? I personally wouldn't want you to give me a false pity post.

Please don't encourage garbage. The shooter will think they are doing well but in fact, that is not the case.
I have seen a number of posts on this site that pr... (show quote)


It's almost as bad as some of the reply's you see that people feel the need to type up a book that takes up an entire page.

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Aug 9, 2019 10:24:54   #
Kmgw9v Loc: Miami, Florida
 
DWHart24 wrote:
It's almost as bad as some of the reply's you see that people feel the need to type up a book that takes up an entire page.


Long responses quickly become tedious, and are often not read seriously.
In some cases, that might be a shame, but it is true. Most readers are impatient and lazy.
The responder should consider that.

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Aug 9, 2019 10:28:29   #
Haydon
 
Kmgw9v wrote:
Long responses quickly become tedious, and are often not read seriously.
In some cases, that might be a shame, but it is true. Most readers are impatient and lazy.
The responder should consider that.


Agreed the internet has created short attention spans it seems or maybe it was always there and I didn 't notice. Keeping your dissertation to a shorter length can encourage people to read to the end. I do admire those that are dedicated. Shapiro and amfoto give a great deal here in contribution. I will admit, I don't always finish their valuable thesis.

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Aug 9, 2019 10:31:28   #
Kmgw9v Loc: Miami, Florida
 
Haydon wrote:
Agreed the internet has created short attention spans it seems or maybe it was always there and I didn 't notice. Keeping your dissertation to a shorter length can encourage people to read to the end. I do admire those that are dedicated. Shapiro and amfoto give a great deal here in contribution. I will admit, I don't always finish their valuable thesis.


I agree that the two you mention have much to say-but...

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Aug 9, 2019 11:04:49   #
Feiertag Loc: British Columbia, Canada
 
Rich1939 wrote:
I would hope that in the business world your story is a familiar one*. We learn when we are taught and also when we teach. Here at the Hog the culture is different as it is more social than anything else. It is in our social environments where the fireworks are most prevalent and that doesn’t look to be changing for the better anytime soon. Least someone try to score political points with my statement; we are all to blame for the current state, either by perpetrating or allowing.

* In my first job,(~ 60 years ago good grief!), after being there for some time I went to my boss and asked how I was doing, how I could do better. He told me, “you know as well as I do what you’re doing right and what you’re doing wrong.” I found a new job within two weeks. Constructive criticism is as important to personal growth as vitamins are to our bodies.
Your first boss was wise. Mine,not so much.
I would hope that in the business world your story... (show quote)


I had a boss that said to me on my first day, "We have the double F system on this section (RCMP Hqt. Drugs). Naturally, I asked the S/Sgt., what is the double F system. He said, "Fit in or F off!"

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Aug 11, 2019 17:08:29   #
rehess Loc: South Bend, Indiana, USA
 
Kmgw9v wrote:
Long responses quickly become tedious, and are often not read seriously.
In some cases, that might be a shame, but it is true. Most readers are impatient and lazy.
The responder should consider that.

My theory is that a response should cover just one point {because otherwise people will major on a minor point} and be to the point. No reason for the Original Poster to have to look through lots of words for the few that matter.

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Aug 13, 2019 07:28:28   #
Photocraig
 
E.L.. Shapiro wrote:
This is a BAD way to start a conversation- I'll explain.

Not EVERYONE on his or any other online photo forum is an aficionado of fine photography. Some folks, if they see a picture of a cute baby, a pretty bird or an interesting animal, the may simply complement the maker. Frankly, they don't know any better and the folks who do should share their expertise and familiars them with the finer points. I don't think they want to mislead an inapt shooter by telling him or her that they are a genius or give them a false sense of confidence nor do they mean to downgrade the standards around here.

So...if you want to improve the standards, rather than issue a rant calling people's work "crap", "lousy" and "garbage", why not write up a tutorial on proper technique, offer constructive critiques, and teach folks to do things right.

Thesis kinds of blanket condemnation of people's work are discouraging and only leads to more name-calling, vitriolic arguments and at the end of the day, nobody learns anything and no one improves.

As a professional photographer, teacher, trainer, print judge at professional competitions and a critic, I have seen some pretty rough stuff. Even as a "boss", a studio owner, I have been disappointed in the performance of some of my own trainees and employees. I never found that going into a tirade and demeaning anyone's work in a harsh and vulgar manner has ever remedied these issues.

Besides, if everyone deletes their mistakes and never posts any of them, how can they possibly learn from their mistakes and do better. Its frustrating when someone poses an issue about something in an image or their work in general that they are dissatisfied with and go into all kinds of written detail but never post an example of the problem- possibly because they are afraid of being browbeaten by nasty folks who just want to deride their work but refuse to help.

Most people will appreciate an honest critique and realize that a inaccurately flattering critique is a disserviced to the maker but they don't need the bluster and the rudeness.
This is a BAD way to start a conversation- I'll ex... (show quote)


Thanks, E.L. Critique is the heart and soul of artistic--especially Photographic education. It is an art in itself, and takes restraint on top of training. The most frequent error from students and hobbyists is to address the subject matter. Who doesn't like a red fox--even outa focus and underexposed a little.

So, yes, gentle positively phrased critiques are a learned skill. There is an order of things and a language--but mostly spoken by advanced hobbyists, pros and educators. And there's still a percentage of a critique that is an opinion. But we can all learn to comment on an image as a photograph and not on how pretty the subject is.

There are lots of photographs that are excellent, but I just don't like to look at them. But I could tell you why they're great photos.
C

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Aug 13, 2019 21:45:05   #
joer Loc: Colorado/Illinois
 
Feiertag wrote:
I have seen a number of posts on this site that praises or gives credit to lousy captures. Why?

Recently there was a series of a Red Fox. I would have deleted them in a heartbeat. They were total crap from my point of view but people posted that they were lovely, etc. Why would you make a kind comment on something that sucks? I personally wouldn't want you to give me a false pity post.

Please don't encourage garbage. The shooter will think they are doing well but in fact, that is not the case.
I have seen a number of posts on this site that pr... (show quote)


People have different standards so who are you to say yours should rule. Photography is entirely subjective.

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Aug 21, 2019 11:07:31   #
Feiertag Loc: British Columbia, Canada
 
joer wrote:
People have different standards so who are you to say yours should rule. Photography is entirely subjective.


Nonsense. There are photos that are good, bad or ugly.

Go through the posts. There a number of people that agree with me.

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