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The CIPA report for June is out: worse than previous years (again)
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Aug 5, 2019 00:33:51   #
rmorrison1116 Loc: Near Valley Forge, Pennsylvania
 
aardq wrote:
20 years ago people bought cameras to take photographs. Most were more than casual shooters. Today most people with a phone that takes pictures think it is a camera, and of themselves as some kind of photographers. The pic for the most part, stay on the SD card and when it's full they get another card. Just not the same.


Cameras in cell phones are cameras, point and shoot cameras; although there are more sophisticated phone cameras. The definition of a photographer is, a person who takes photographs. If some one is using the camera in their cell phone to take photographs then they are a photographer. Your own words, some kind of photographer. Yes, they are some kind of photographer, the casual amateur kind of photographer; extremely rarely a professional photographer although there are professional photographers who do work with cell phones.

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Aug 5, 2019 02:35:30   #
rook2c4 Loc: Philadelphia, PA USA
 
Fortunately I already have all the cameras I need, so what's going on in the market concerning cameras doesn't really have an impact on me.

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Aug 5, 2019 03:26:43   #
rmorrison1116 Loc: Near Valley Forge, Pennsylvania
 
rook2c4 wrote:
Fortunately I already have all the cameras I need, so what's going on in the market concerning cameras doesn't really have an impact on me.


Amen to that. It's not like just because the manufacturers are selling fewer units, our existing DSLR'S, MILC'S, Bridge and point and shoot cameras are going to cease functioning.

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Aug 5, 2019 06:58:25   #
machia Loc: NJ
 
Everyone always loved to take photos. From amateurs to professionals, you went to a camera store to buy a camera and film. Now a little camera sits in everyone’s hand in their cellphone. Of course the market will shrink.
But there will always be a market for superior optics, just a smaller market.

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Aug 5, 2019 08:03:11   #
Collhar Loc: New York City.
 
larryepage wrote:
It is not uncommon for technology-based products to reach a point of 'developmental maturity,' at which there is no reasonably achievable advance possible at anything close to a reasonable cost. It is very possible that digital cameras are approaching the point that there is not a meaningful "next great thing." An objective look at the D850, for instance, reveals that despite the great wave of hype and excitement that accompanied its release, there really is not any earth shattering advance over the D810. Yes...there are some very nice new features and some incremental performance improvement, but without the frenzy and marketing momentum, there was really not a rational justification for very many people to spend $3400 to replace a D810.

Disclosure: I have a D850 that I added as a second full frame body to accompany a D810. I like it quite a lot. But without the need for more operational flexibility, there would have been no real motivation to ditch the 810 for the 850 at that level of cost.

The point is that by any reasonable measure, digital photography is either at or quickly approaching a very real technological plateau. Half of folks here proclaim loudly that newer, more capable cameras don't make any difference, and I'll bet that most of the other half couldn't provide a reasonable list of innovations that they would like to see (and be willing to pay for) beyond what they own today. The rational truth is that the "new" mirrorless products do not represent a tech revolution, but rather a simple incremental evolution which actually favors the manufacturers by simplifying their manufacturing processes, reducing their costs, and providing an opportunity to try to bump up prices. Whether it is working is very much debatable. I have seen unsold mirrorless cameras on the shelf at every camera store where I shop for a number of weeks. That means that the initial frenzy has died out much faster for these models than for the previous couple of rounds of new SLRs. In addition, there is already downward pressure on the prices of these models, again very much sooner than for previous rounds of new camera introduction.

To me, the message is clear, and I have stated it here before. Instead of bemoaning the situation, we all need to be promoting our hobby and working to bring new practitioners in to it. It would help a lot if we worked together to promote and encourage new photographers, have patience when they ask questions, and bring them along with us. Young ones are best, but any new photographer expands us as a group and also helps expand the market for manufacturers.
It is not uncommon for technology-based products t... (show quote)


"Young ones are the best" last year I gave my 13 year old granddaughter my D90. At first she had an interest. She took pictures and used her fathers LR to edit some pictures and she seemed to be interested in the process. Then she turned 14 and she got her first cell phone. The camera is now who knows where.
Young people and young families are not going to schlep around all the "stuff" needed for a DSLR. They will whip out the cell phone take the picture/video and send it along. They and their audience are not going to spend the time to be critical of the picture and waste time talking about depth of field or ISO blah....blah.
The cell phone takes a very good picture. Everyone is happy and they have moved on. For those of us who use DSLR's and somehow think we are special that ship has sailed.
"

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Aug 5, 2019 08:49:27   #
machia Loc: NJ
 
Collhar wrote:
"Young ones are the best" last year I gave my 13 year old granddaughter my D90. At first she had an interest. She took pictures and used her fathers LR to edit some pictures and she seemed to be interested in the process. Then she turned 14 and she got her first cell phone. The camera is now who knows where.
Young people and young families are not going to schlep around all the "stuff" needed for a DSLR. They will whip out the cell phone take the picture/video and send it along. They and their audience are not going to spend the time to be critical of the picture and waste time talking about depth of field or ISO blah....blah.
The cell phone takes a very good picture. Everyone is happy and they have moved on. For those of us who use DSLR's and somehow think we are special that ship has sailed.
"
"Young ones are the best" last year I ga... (show quote)


You hit the nail on the head, lol.
I have tons of film and digital equipment but the camera in the cell phone takes nice pictures. Technology !

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Aug 5, 2019 09:45:46   #
CWGordon
 
larryepage:
Insightful and astute analysis. Thank you.

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Aug 5, 2019 09:50:54   #
alexol
 
larryepage wrote:
...big snip...

Instead of bemoaning the situation, we all need to be promoting our hobby and working to bring new practitioners in to it. It would help a lot if we worked together to promote and encourage new photographers, have patience when they ask questions, and bring them along with us. Young ones are best, but any new photographer expands us as a group and also helps expand the market for manufacturers.


Perhaps even take it one step further and actively encourage the cellphone picture takers, using a cellphone as a stepping stone on the better things?

Some are never going to convert - and a quick thrash around YouTube is enough to understand that there are some truly fine masterworks taken with cellphones - but others will, perhaps.

If not, the photography hobby will continue to die at an accelarating rate. More people than ever before take pictures, just not with our kind of gear.

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Aug 5, 2019 09:53:45   #
rehess Loc: South Bend, Indiana, USA
 
alexol wrote:
Perhaps even take it one step further and actively encourage the cellphone picture takers, using a cellphone as a stepping stone on the better things?

Some are never going to convert - and a quick thrash around YouTube is enough to understand that there are some truly fine masterworks taken with cellphones - but others will, perhaps.

If not, the photography hobby will continue to die at an accelarating rate. More people than ever before take pictures, just not with our kind of gear.
Perhaps even take it one step further and actively... (show quote)
That depends on what you mean by "our kind of gear"; the people who use cell phones today would have used an Instamatic when I was young.

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Aug 5, 2019 09:58:29   #
DaveyDitzer Loc: Western PA
 
We can also encourage newbies by avoiding snarky replies to questions we think are silly or mundane.

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Aug 5, 2019 09:58:42   #
Rich1939 Loc: Pike County Penna.
 
Bill_de wrote:
I wonder when or if this will slow down innovation in the imaging software industry?

---


I would think not. In fact the opposite is more likely.

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Aug 5, 2019 10:12:50   #
Rich1939 Loc: Pike County Penna.
 
If my memory is serving me correctly the photography market had plateaued towards the end of the 20th century, then along came digital which created a new segment. I think that new segment inflated the true market strengths and we're witnessing a contraction back to reality. Getting the numbers back to where they were 3 or 4 years ago will require another break through.

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Aug 5, 2019 10:42:43   #
alexol
 
rehess wrote:
That depends on what you mean by "our kind of gear"; the people who use cell phones today would have used an Instamatic when I was young.


Not necessarily - people of all ages and walks of life are using cellphones seriously and less seriously. The vast bulk of them will buy new cellphones but will never upgrade (in the sense of increased technical capability) beyond buying ever-improving phones. Bear in mind there is now a 50Mp phone available.

Seems to me that "way back when", say around the 60s & 70s, there were effectively two channels. And those who took pictures at all were relatively rare as for quite a segment of the population processing was considered expensive, a luxury. Often, taking a photo, even a snapshot, was done very carefully due to expense, lacking the advantage of a delete button*.

Channel 1: Kodak Instamatic or similar, then a rangefinder (Zeiss Ikon, Voightlander etc), and more recently a film P&S and on to digital P&S. Very casual use. 99.9% of picture takers want simplicity.

Channel 2: Kodak Instamatic or similar ---> eventually to SLR as a more serious & complex hobby.

Obviously this leaves out the pros who were and remain a miniscule percentage of the picture-taking world.

* On a separate note, I'm not sure delete buttons have done us any favors. These days, when I compose a serious business letter, I agonize over it, editing and re-editing. My step-father would think for a few moments, then simply dictate a great letter. So, does a delete option lead to careless thought?

A translator I knew years ago - a wonderful lady - had a sign above her desk which I've never forgotten: "What first appears to be a sloppy or meaningless use of words may in fact be a perfectly correct use of words to express sloppy or meaningless ideas".

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Aug 5, 2019 10:47:59   #
rehess Loc: South Bend, Indiana, USA
 
Rich1939 wrote:
If my memory is serving me correctly the photography market had plateaued towards the end of the 20th century, then along came digital which created a new segment. I think that new segment inflated the true market strengths and we're witnessing a contraction back to reality. Getting the numbers back to where they were 3 or 4 years ago will require another break through.
The numbers were inflated in the 1985-2000 period by people who went from Instamatics for some reason. I knew a number who used Instamatic in 1970’s, point&shoot digital in early 2000’s, and some kind of SLR in between. The first digital P&S I ever saw was in hands I had last seen holding a K1000, which she had gone to from some kind of 110 camera.

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Aug 5, 2019 10:59:20   #
rehess Loc: South Bend, Indiana, USA
 
alexol wrote:
Not necessarily - people of all ages and walks of life are using cellphones seriously and less seriously. The vast bulk of them will buy new cellphones but will never upgrade (in the sense of increased technical capability) beyond buying ever-improving phones. Bear in mind there is now a 50Mp phone available.

Seems to me that "way back when", say around the 60s & 70s, there were effectively two channels. And those who took pictures at all were relatively rare as for quite a segment of the population processing was considered expensive, a luxury. Often, taking a photo, even a snapshot, was done very carefully due to the lack of a delete button.

Channel 1: Kodak Instamatic or similar, then a rangefinder (Zeiss Ikon, Voightlander etc), and more recently a film P&S and on to digital P&S. Very casual use. 99.9% of the picture takers want simplicity.

Channel 2: Kodak Instamatic or similar ---> eventually to SLR as a more serious & complex hobby.

Obviously this leaves out the pros who were and remain a miniscule percentage of the picture-taking world.
Not necessarily - people of all ages and walks of ... (show quote)
My experience was completely different. To expand on what I said in my previous post, I knew a number of people - including a female friend, a male friend, my brother, and my mother - who were using Instamatics in 1975 when I was using a rangefinder camera. By 1985 all of us were using SLRs. I was the last one to go digital - in 2007; by then the others were all using digital P&S

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