JimH Loc: Western South Jersey, USA

Tilde ~ and I entered into a discussion on a Pictures thread about how awful the pre-Modern age was. I don't think we necessarily disagree, but in the interests of enlightenment for some of you poor souls, I thought we'd bring the discussion here.

To Wit;
Poke around any cemetery and look at the gravestones of people prior to around 1950. You'll find most people died well before they hit 50. Seven out of ten children never made it to legal drinking age. Life for all but royalty was short, brutish, cold, wet and painful - but for many , Hollywood and the mass media has convinced them that 'things were better back then', 'life was simpler', 'people were nicer' or whatever.

If "Little House on the Prairie" had been historically accurate, most of the Ingalls kids would have died by 15 from cholera, measles, dysentery or tuberculosis, and Papa Joe would have blown his brains out by 45. If "Dr Quinn Medicine Woman" had been historically accurate, ALL of her patients would have died either during or immediately after surgery. If ANY movie set in any village, town or city prior to about 1920 was historically accurate, they'd show you the streets literally flowing with horse (and for that matter, human) manure. If you think your water is dirty now, try drinking it out of a street gutter with a 18 inches or so of horse manure in it EVERY SINGLE DAY OF THE YEAR.

Ya think lower Manhatten around 1900 would have been 'nicer to live in' ? Picture this - approximately 100,000 horses, each producing about 50 pounds of manure every day, and that manure piling up on street corners in mounds 20 to 30 feet high. Now, picture a nice hot, rainy summer afternoon in town. Still think cars and taxis are tools of the devil?

Picture what you'd eat without your fridge. Or stove. Or running water. Wanna drain your veggies from water you collected outside?

By any measure even remotely intelligent, life in most of the world prior to the advent of electricity, modern medicine, modern sanitation and mechanized farming was absolutely horrible, unless you were the aforementioned royalty and even then, if you got sick, you were generally dead by weeks end.

Women - want to spend ALL of your short life cooking, cleaning, washing clothes, NOT getting an education and dying in childbirth at 32?

Non-whites: Want to be someones SERVANT at best, or have your family broken up and sold for less than what we'd pay for a suit of clothes these days? Simple. Go back to the 'good old days'.

Don't kid yourselves - most people on this planet, and certainly a huge majority of them in the developed countries, are far far far better off than they would have been a century ago.

Annabelle

I totally agree. The good old days were not all that great for an awful lot of people. They look great in movies, but that's Hollywood, not reality.

dragonfist Loc: Stafford, N.Y.

My dad always used to say, "The only thing good about the good old days is that they are gone." I can't help but agree. My wife lost a brother to polio in 1946. He was 11 years old.
10 years later he would have had the vaccine and maybe a good long life.

snowbear

"The good ol' days weren't always good; tomorrow ain't as bad as it seems" --Billy Joel, "Keeping the Faith"

dkfotografi Loc: Midwest

Well said :thumbup:

Lmarc Loc: Ojojona, Honduras

I grew up in the Ozarks as a true "Hillbilly", and I've had so many people tell me how cool, romantic, etc., it was. At the time it didn't seem so bad but that was because we didn't know anything else. It's rather inconvenient to live without electricity, light with kerosene, chop wood for cooking and heating. Winter was always cold, summer hot and humid. We had never heard of AC or central heating. Water was from a spring with a bucket. Milk and butter (home-churned) was kept cool in the springhouse in summer and kept from freezing there in winter. Shoes and pants always had holes and working outside in winter without gloves was really painful. We hardly knew what money was, and a nickel was great, a quarter a fortune! Dinner sometimes depended on how good a shot we were that day and how many squirrels we encountered.

We had a one-room schoolhouse with eight grades in one room. One teacher, outdoor pump for water and an outhouse. Our "library" consisted of two old sets of World Book encyclopedias, about fifty OLD books from pre-WWII, and our textbooks were used year after year, many from the 1920's. But WE LEARNED! We learned because we wanted to, and we didn't know we were "disadvantaged".

Many things about the "good old days" were cold, harsh, hot and painful, but they still hold some of my very favorite memories.

JimH Loc: Western South Jersey, USA

Lmarc, you were only "disadvantaged" from the viewpoint of some government busybody. It's good that you survived those times, and it's good that you have fond memories of your childhood, I'm sure many people who may have grown up in the 'country' in the middle part of the 20th Century have similar tales to tell. I was lucky enough to grow up as a child with one great grandmother, who lived to 92, both grandmothers, and a grandfather, all of whom lived well into their 80s. My mother's parents were born in this country, but her grandparents were German. They emigrated to the Chicago area in the early 1900s and from what I remember my grandmother telling me, had literally nothing to start with. As with most immigrants, hard work and education were the keys for them.

The point of this is that my aged relatives lived through some hard times, the Depression and two world wars, and yet they NEVER once told me they wish they could have those times back. My grandmother would have defended her washer and dryer to her death. :)

Cheers to you. :thumbup:

Lmarc Loc: Ojojona, Honduras

One other thing about the "good old days" of my childhood. Everyone in our locality was ethnically French, German or English. My family came from England in 1690's so we were the latter. There was NO racial or ethnic prejudice. I only met two black people before I went to high school in the "big city". There was a very old black lady who lived with her son a few miles from our farm. Everyone called her Aunt Jenny. She was in her late nineties or older with snow-white hair. In those days calling an older black person "Aunt" or "Uncle" was a title of respect, not racism. What I found so great about her, other than being in total control of her faculties and a very nice lady, was that she was the only person I've ever met that had actually been born a slave. Everyone had the utmost respect for her and, even though everyone else in the community had white skin and blue eyes, would have defended her to the bitter end. Unfortunately, times have changed.

Annabelle

Hard times can make for fond memories, not because the times were hard, but because we shared them with people we loved. It doesn't mean we want to relive them, however.

nikondaddy Loc: Mayfield,Kentucky

The good old days are about morals and manners and if you ca enrich people on any good day you are living in a good old day.I am old and I know childhood was better for me lookiing back that it for the kids I look at today sitting around with cells ,phones,computers and on their fat behinds yelling."Im Bored" While being told on CNN they are boring.

slhunky Loc: Murfreesboro,Tn

My Grandad used to tell me about "the good ole days" when he would get up at 4:00 walk 6 miles uphill to work all day for .35 and then walked 6 miles up hill to get home. When he would tell me about those days I would always say, "I have heard the ole days but when are you going to get to the good?" But, you know there were a lot of good times; friend and neighbors who cared and families who visted and stayed in touch. Children learning about the real world instead of sitting on their fat happy and only thinking they know.

PalePictures Loc: Traveling

Isn't it amazing.
For 2000 years when Kings ruled and governments reigned supreme --societies didn't advance. Then Liberty hit in 1776. The concept was simple what you made was yours to keep. People bonded under there hardship to make life better -- there was nothing greater that you could depend on than your neighbor. People became more giving. You helped your neighbor and sometimes took advantage of him.

Andrew Carnegie created U.S. Steel Not because he was altruistic but because he benefited. So did everyone else.

Oh yea he was the founder of child labor. Now kids just kill each other over drugs. Seems its a lot better now. In some ways it is.

Carnegie eventually gave all of his money to foundations. Which are still giving today

Thomas Edison created the light bulb and about 400 other things because he benefited so did everyone else.

Talking about them horses. Henry Ford created the automobile because he benefited.

Oh yea he created the 40 hour work week and still benefited.

And to think in there time they were called Robber Barons.

Bill Gates Michael Dell Larry Elison Steven Jobs(God bless his soul). All because they benefited.

.
Bill Gates - Doing what Andrew Carnegie did giving all that wealth away. -- Along with Warren Buffet -- who never made a thing -- I might add.

And all those hospital with all those doctors that save thousands a day because doctors make a lot. They benefit so do you.

Most hospitals take you whether you have any money or not. You make a couple of small token payments then they wipe it from the books. I have a couple young people I know who this personally happened too. I guess they're are some that don't. One thing is for sure there were a lot more infants and dead mothers in cemeteries than there are today. Although my grandparents all lived in there 80's and 90's and hung out with each other until each passed.
(I digress)

How could wealth have been distributed if it was not created?

I guess I don't buy into that pay your fair share thing. Each of these people did more to help mankind than anyone on this forum or any member of congress albeit the guys who eventually stuck there neck out to create a running start.

It was a shame the slavery thing. Mans liberty gone a stray. At least it was corrected although far too late.

I sure agree that things are much better today. I just hope we don't stagnate for another 2000 years and have another people discover what we once new. Things are moving much faster now with information and goods. China is fast becoming the next free society and its moving fast. My brother son is living in China now and teaching English to the Chinese . He already speaks Chinese.

Russ

JimH Loc: Western South Jersey, USA

PP, You're right on the money except for one thing - mankind lived under slavery, theocracy and autocracy for closer to 5,000 years than just 2,000. (Yeah, I hear people say "well, Democracy was invented in Greece..". Yeah. For White Men only..) The grand experiment birthed in my hometown of Philadelphia way back in 1776 was the most cataclysmic event in political history the world has ever seen, and only the fall of the Berlin Wall 20 years ago comes close.

And yes, most people don't realize that the huge gains made by the middle class in this country (and then the world at large)between 1900 and 1960 were primarily due to the industrial leaders like Carnegie, Rockefeller and Ford, and the scientists and inventors like Goodyear, Edison, and Dupont(s). Their brand of capitalism was far different than that practiced by the CEOs of Lehman Brothers, Bank of America and the other TARP benefactors of today.
:thumbup:

PalePictures Loc: Traveling

Ok Jim I could have went back 5000. I could have went back to Neanderthal. I stand corrected.

I had one of those philosophical moments.
This forum does seem to draw them out.
I do love these threads and the occasional wacko.
Not that there's anything wrong with that.(gotta love Sinefeld)

I definitely agree on the other points.

Russ

PalePictures Loc: Traveling

There's a big difference between democracy and Liberty.