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Crop Factor
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Jun 22, 2019 18:28:09   #
lamiaceae Loc: San Luis Obispo County, CA
 
NCMtnMan wrote:
Largest sensor in the world won't make a lousy photographer take great pictures. There are situations where a full frame camera may be better suited and vice versa. Like a framing hammer or a tack hammer. Depends on what you're nailing.



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Jun 22, 2019 18:31:49   #
Notorious T.O.D. Loc: Harrisburg, North Carolina
 
Of course it also depends where the horsepower is measured...

rmorrison1116 wrote:
I'm curious, and just for the sake of conversation; what's the difference between "just sayin' " and "just saying"? Same number of key strokes, so there's no savings there. I've seen this convention used by several people and as I mentioned, I'm curious.

"The larger the engine, the more HP". Does that apply to muscle car engines only? The reason I ask is, my car has a 1.4 liter or just about 85 and a half cubic inch 4 cylinder engine rated at 153 horsepower. My motorcycle has a 1833 cc, almost 112 cubic inch 6 cylinder engine rated at 126 horsepower. A previous car of mine had an approximately 79 cubic inch engine rated at 255 horsepower while my trucks 366 cubic inch engine is rated at 300 horsepower. The smaller engines produce more horsepower, or at least a higher horsepower to displacement ratio, but none are muscle car engines.
Many years ago I owned a 1966 Chevy Impala SS with the L72 427 engine. Now that was a muscle car with 425 horses under the hood. That's almost 1 horsepower per cubic inch. Interestingly enough, my motorcycle's 112 cubic inch engine produces 126 horsepower which is more than 1 horsepower per cubic inch, making the motorcycle more muscular than the muscle car.
All of which is totally irrelevant but it brings more depth to the conversation and I find it far more interesting than crop factors, plus it brought back some really good memories.
I'm curious, and just for the sake of conversation... (show quote)

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Jun 22, 2019 19:09:04   #
rmorrison1116 Loc: Near Valley Forge, Pennsylvania
 
rmalarz wrote:
Oh geez, The Northrups. If either one of them told me what time it was, I'd pray I had an accurate watch to verify it for myself.
--Bob


What's wrong with the Northrup's? I find them quite entertaining and Chelsea is very easy on the eyes. I don't always agree with them, more often Tony, but for a guy who had a long career as a technical author, at times he tends to portray opinion as fact. I've purchased publications and gear from the Northrup's and they've always been honest and quite reasonable. Several years ago they bought a Canon EOS 5D mk II and apparently it came with the EF 24-105 f/4L lens. Tony liked the Sigma 24-105 better than the Canon so they posted it for sale on their web site. I bought the lens, a book, a tee shirt for my wife and a SD card loaded with tutorials and corresponding practice databases for under $560. The lens was in new condition and has been one of my go to lenses for several years.
As I mentioned, Tony at times can be overly opinionated but that aside, he and she are good at their craft and do know a good amount about digital photography, just ignore Tony's stupid opinionated comments and from time to time, obvious lack of thorough research.

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Jun 22, 2019 19:09:52   #
rmorrison1116 Loc: Near Valley Forge, Pennsylvania
 
Notorious T.O.D. wrote:
Of course it also depends where the horsepower is measured...


True that...

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Jun 22, 2019 19:19:41   #
rmorrison1116 Loc: Near Valley Forge, Pennsylvania
 
Notorious T.O.D. wrote:
Sorry, but a car engine size and horsepower is a very bad example. It is not nearly so simple with car engines or sensors.
.
.
.

My son has run 900 plus cubic inch nitrous injected motors and supercharged motors. He was crew chief on a twin turbo car that won the World Series of Pro Mod race in Colorado last August. So I know enough to be dangerous. Simple comparison and generalizations may seem like a good idea but engine horsepower and camera sensors are more complex in reality.
Sorry, but a car engine size and horsepower is a v... (show quote)


Your son sounds like the one in the know, and has a really cool job.

My daughter is a RN at one of the largest and prestigious hospitals in the Suburban Philadelphia PA area. That doesn't make me at all knowledgeable about things medical.

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Jun 22, 2019 20:31:06   #
rmorrison1116 Loc: Near Valley Forge, Pennsylvania
 
aphelps wrote:
Electronic noise is always there. Read/write noise and shot noise are a matter of physics. Larger sensors do not filter out this noise. Larger pixels can be more efficient in capturing light resulting in a higher signal to noise ratio which tends to mask the noise better. More powerful processors reduce processing time.


How fast data may move from point A to point B is bound by physics. One of the tasks of modern image processors is figuring out what is electronic noise and what is data.
You say more powerful processors reduce processing time. What do you think the processing part of image processing is!?
One of the image processors tasks is converting the signals from the image sensor into digital data. Part of that process is the recognition of useable data vs electronic noise.
It's not so much sensor size as it is pixel density. Yes, the more pixels you have, the more signal to convert to data. But, since sensor sizes are fixed, for example, approximately 24 X 36 for full frame 35mm, you have to look at pixel size and density.
When Canon designed the 5DSr, they were working at the bleeding edge of current technology. Cramming over 50 million pixels onto that 24 X 36 chip was quite the task and keeping it from being a noise farm was yet another major accomplishment. Of course partly achieved by using dual processors and setting normal ISO ceiling at 6400. Quite a low ceiling for 2015. The next DSLR to use the digic 6 processor was the EOS 80D with a normal ceiling of ISO 16000; of course with less than half the pixels of the 5DSr and only 1 image processor.

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Jun 22, 2019 20:45:56   #
Ysarex Loc: St. Louis
 
rmorrison1116 wrote:
What's wrong with the Northrup's?


They get their facts wrong a little too frequently.

Joe

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Jun 22, 2019 22:03:20   #
xt2 Loc: British Columbia, Canada
 
jeep_daddy wrote:
Yes, the smaller the sensor, the more limited it is. The larger the sensor, the better. I'm not trying to say that your micro 4/3rds isn't good, just sayin' that the larger the sensor the better.

It's like a muscle car engine, the larger the engine, the more HP.


The crop cameras produce wonderful images, we all know that. If it is to be a billboard, I suggest a larger format, however, FF won't come close to their senior medium format brethren. So why not put this to sleep. Each to their own. The analogy regarding large displacement engines is interesting. Corvette ZR1 or Z06s and various iterations of the GM LS7 small block are running circles around big block vehicles with their small block 650-750 HP aluminum motors. Dodge says the Challenger Hellcat Redeye big block will run the quarter mile in 10.8 seconds at 131 mph and zero-to-60 mph in 3.4 seconds. The 2019 Corvette ZR1 small block reports in at 0-60 in 2.85 seconds. "Beauty" may be in the eye of the beholder methinks.

Try running a big block motor in the Trans AM races across America. Those small block screamers may not have the torque of their larger cousins, however, they have the horsepower and best of all, will out handle (i.e. win races other than 1/4 straight-line drags races of the past) when pitted against the big blocks. Cropped cameras are usually smaller and much more svelt & easy to carry/use/manouver. As I say, each to their own.

Cheers!

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Jun 22, 2019 22:08:39   #
cjc2 Loc: Hellertown PA
 
ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ... Best of luck to all.

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Jun 22, 2019 22:36:22   #
GoofyNewfie Loc: Kansas City
 
frankraney wrote:
..... If you were to use an external light meter, for a FF or 35mm you would have to use the crop factor to get the correct settings for the crop. (I'm sure)..... I may get jumped, but I just think it's over hyped... Good to know only....



Nope.
Sounds like a Northrop myth.
Never needed a different exposure for large format, medium format or 35mm film.
If there was, there would have been a correction factor on a hand held meter. There are not.
(I'm really sure)

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Jun 22, 2019 22:38:45   #
Notorious T.O.D. Loc: Harrisburg, North Carolina
 
My son did some mods to his friend’s corvette a couple years ago and it was running 9 seconds in the quarter mile... The nitrous 959 powered car my son ran in 2017 would run 3.80 at just under 200mph in the 1/8th mile on a fairly mild tune.

I love Indy car and the technology is so good now that the engines have no trouble running 500 miles. Much different from what it was a few decades ago.

xt2 wrote:
The crop cameras produce wonderful images, we all know that. If it is to be a billboard, I suggest a larger format, however, FF won't come close to their senior medium format brethren. So why not put this to sleep. Each to their own. The analogy regarding large displacement engines is interesting. Corvette ZR1 or Z06s and various iterations of the GM LS7 small block are running circles around big block vehicles with their small block 650-750 HP aluminum motors. Dodge says the Challenger Hellcat Redeye big block will run the quarter mile in 10.8 seconds at 131 mph and zero-to-60 mph in 3.4 seconds. The 2019 Corvette ZR1 small block reports in at 0-60 in 2.85 seconds. "Beauty" may be in the eye of the beholder methinks.

Try running a big block motor in the Trans AM races across America. Those small block screamers may not have the torque of their larger cousins, however, they have the horsepower and best of all, will out handle (i.e. win races other than 1/4 straight-line drags races of the past) when pitted against the big blocks. Cropped cameras are usually smaller and much more svelt & easy to carry/use/manouver. As I say, each to their own.

Cheers!
The crop cameras produce wonderful images, we all ... (show quote)

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Jun 22, 2019 22:49:58   #
Harry13
 
aellman wrote:
I don't consider myself a guru, fake or real, but I stand by my post. You might consider a course in anger management.


LOL And you might want to try and develop a sense of humor. This is an I-net NG, not a graduate course in photography! <g>

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Jun 22, 2019 23:17:11   #
burkphoto Loc: High Point, NC
 
Bill P wrote:
I too have m4/3. I don't pay any attention to the so called crop factor, or make a big thing out of it or try to fill it with science and math like so many posters. They all make lenses that are the equivalent of whatever in 35. I just put a lens on and TAKE PICTURES.

As one might expect, the move to digital has made photography prone to over-complicating things with stuff that is irrelevant.


Agreed. It's like learning the metric system. At first, you get annoyed, then you get angry, then you learn what a centimeter is, what a kilogram is, and so on, and THEN, it is second nature to guesstimate weights and measures in the new system. Eventually, you drop the conversion syndrome and just live with it.

I have come to think about my 12-35, 30mm macro, and 35-70mm lenses just like I did the 24-70, 60mm macro, and 70-200mm lenses on full frame Canons and Nikons. I use my depth of field calculator to determine apertures for specific depth of field requirements.

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Jun 22, 2019 23:46:36   #
dubyacee
 
You know, it seems to me that any time someone asks a simple question on here, it ends up in a pissing contest! People start bragging about their cameras and photographic knowledge and for God's sake, even automobile horsepower. I subscribed to this thing to further my knowledge and interests in photography, not read 5 or more pages of comparing penis sizes. Color me gone!

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Jun 22, 2019 23:53:26   #
Notorious T.O.D. Loc: Harrisburg, North Carolina
 
It is a forum...if you get no value from it then by all means perhaps your time is better spent elsewhere. But in life I have found you have to take the good with the rest. And decide what of it you find of value. It will never be all wine and roses I’m certain.

dubyacee wrote:
You know, it seems to me that any time someone asks a simple question on here, it ends up in a pissing contest! People start bragging about their cameras and photographic knowledge and for God's sake, even automobile horsepower. I subscribed to this thing to further my knowledge and interests in photography, not read 5 or more pages of comparing penis sizes. Color me gone!

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