Linda From Maine Loc: Yakima, Washington

A topic in main discussion here wandered into the territory mentioned in my title. Can someone do a comparison of 8-bit and 16-bit editing with one of these attached raw files, and also attempt to introduce banding?

I use 8-bit PS Elements and don't remember seeing an issue with sky banding. Is it because I rarely use the sharpen tool? Or why?

Attached file:
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Attached file:
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Attached file:
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Attached file:
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CanonTom Loc: Birmingham

This is going to be interesting. Watching. And Linda, thanks for introducing this thread!

Linda From Maine Loc: Yakima, Washington

Appreciate your interest, Tom. I think bsprague gave the best advice early on in that topic, "For the 16 bit part, that might be important if National Geographic is a client. For the rest of us, 8 vs 16 is more theoretical than a real limitation." I'd sometimes been curious what I was missing out on

CHG_CANON Loc: the Windy City

I only took the first file that existed initially ... My experience is deeper blues cause more issues. I'll look for a version from my files where I've seen these issues in deeper blue skies.

The issue show in the attached is rather subtle. If you open the attachment and zoom to the arrows, you can start to see the issue in the PSE. I have only older tools and I essentially never use PSE10 for image editing so my skills on image processing are next to nil, so maybe some 'basic' edits via PSE10 could be done better to avoid the issues in the sky I've created. Open the JPEG in Windows 'photos' (or similar) and zoom to 50% and the issues on the PSE side become more obvious. At this 50% zoom, some of the color bands in also start to show in the LR side of the image as well.

(Download)

Linda From Maine Loc: Yakima, Washington

Thank you, Paul! So, at 50% we have "subtle."

Now I'll go look for a darker blue sky to share

CHG_CANON Loc: the Windy City

Here's a dark blue example from the files ... The banding in the sky and water shows even in the thumbnail.

(Download)

Linda From Maine Loc: Yakima, Washington

OK, but you were editing the jpg, not the raw. Would that make a difference? When you open the raw into PSE 10's workspace, will it look different if you save as psd file? Is the raw file under 22 mb? Wondering if you can upload it here.

CHG_CANON Loc: the Windy City

You can see how little I use PSE ... I didn't think it could even open an EOS 5DIII CR2. (At 23MB, too big to attach and as a quality image, not one I will share at full resolution, even via JPEG.) But, dragging the CR2 into PSE10 and viola, it is editable in Camera RAW v6.7. But, once I move from Camera RAW to PSE, every time I try to enhance further, I'm advised the bit depth needs to change to 8-bit. Even trying to level the horizon pushes to 8-bit. Again, this may be an out-of-date issue of this older software, or maybe how PSE behaves even in the current version.

Without trying to become an on-the-fly PSE expert, here's a brief attempt to recreate the LR version using just camera RAW and PSE10. The banding is less pronounced from the RAW rather then JPEG original, but the colors aren't as 'rich' as I created from LR, again probably a skills limitation rather than a tool limitation.

(Here's the full LR version from a prior Landscape Section post: Sunrise over the Marsh)

(Download)

Linda From Maine Loc: Yakima, Washington

I greatly appreciate your time, Paul! Yes, PSE's version of ACR will do 16-bit, but the main workspace will only edit and save as 8-bit. Normally I wouldn't care about these kinds of comparative demonstrations, but I kind of got involved in that main forum topic and was heartened by bsprague's observation that for most of us "8 vs 16 is more theoretical than a real limitation." So that led to curiosity...

Ysarex Loc: St. Louis

Here's your Panny photo in a side by side 8 bit versus 16 bit processing using a pixel editor (Photoshop) as you would process it with PSE.

I used ACR to prep the raw file (WB and basic tone adjust). I delivered a 16 bit Pro-photo color space RGB image to PS. I duplicated the image and switched one over to 8 bit then converted both to sRGB.

Both images then received identical further processing to darken the sky, raise contrast and get the sky color corrected. To do that I used adjustment layers on the 16 bit image and dragged them to the 8 bit image when they were ready.

I inset in the upper left corner of each image the histogram for each and you can see in the histograms the banding difference -- the 8 bit histogram is spreading apart.

But can you really see it in the images is the question. If visible at all it's pretty subtle and if you downsize the image for use you're not going to see it.

The key is starting with a raw file out the gate and doing the prep in ACR before beginning to edit in PSE. If the editing were attempted instead on the Panny JPEG the results would be much different.

Got to go run some errands. Later today if I get a chance I can show you another version of the 8 bit processing that's better.

Joe

https://www.dropbox.com/s/wuw34h151pyidsk/8bit_panny.jpg?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/i5ixbriwthcyfex/16bit_panny.jpg?dl=0

Linda From Maine Loc: Yakima, Washington

Fantastic, Joe, thanks so much! I really appreciate your time and effort on these.

rcarol

I can't provide you a comparison. All I can do is provide an example of banding in the sky as a result of over processing an 8-bit jpeg in photoshop.

(Download)

Ysarex Loc: St. Louis

Sorry for the delay. I wanted to show you this version as well. It is also processed from the 8 bit file handed off from ACR. Compare the inset histogram in this one with the earlier 8 bit image I linked. This histogram shows less breaking up and spreading than the earlier one. Still not as good as 16 bit but nonetheless when you're working with 8 bit files every little bit helps.

This image isn't identical to the other two because it was processed using different tools. The earlier images were very conventionally processed using both Levels and Curves. Well if you want to avoid banding and similar ills Levels and Curves are not your friends. So this image was processed using blending modes (available in both PS and PSE). Compared with Levels and Curves you'll find they get the job done with less negative side effects.

Photo editing is double edged and every cut has both its positive and negative aspect. Working in 16 bit minimizes the bad. If you have to work in 8 bit, blending modes minimize the bad compared to Levels and Curves.

Joe

https://www.dropbox.com/s/h3oreewwlxqbne7/8bit_joe.jpg?dl=0

Ysarex Loc: St. Louis

Wow! That was a challenge.

Joe

Don, the 2nd son Loc: Crowded Florida

Now, that one I can see and have had on occasion. The others I couldn't see a difference, may be my old eyes.