speters Loc: Grangeville/Idaho

Blenheim Orange Loc: Michigan

I understood you, my friend. I disagreed with you, and still do. No worries. We view this differently.

Mike

Blenheim Orange Loc: Michigan

Thanks for taking the time to respond again.



No need for that, is there?



Agreed. DPP reads and displays CR2 files, just as many programs read and display JPEG files or TIFF files or PNG files.

As I said before, I understand that a JPEG thumbnail is created in camera. I have not been talking about those JPEG thumbnails. DPP is not displaying a JPEG thumbnail when you open up a .cr file. Nor are any of the camera settings such as picture styles and white balance baked into the raw file, nor are any particular settings in the camera necessary for DPP to display a raw file. If we can't call that "looking at a raw image" what can we call it? What other parameters are there to influence the JPEG generation other than the picture styles (I think that is what they are called, I don't use them)? Size and "quality" are baked in, yes, to the JPEG, and size is baked in to the raw file.



Understood. I thought you had capitalized "raw."

You can sometimes open a formatted image file with a text editor but all you will see is mostly gibberish because it's not text data. Some text editors won't even open the file because they know it's not text and if one accidentally saves the data in may be damaged.



The choice you are given by the camera is to write raw files to the card, write JPEG files to the card, or write both. The camera is not "shooting in JPEG," it is processing and writing JPEGs to the card.

It is popular to say that raw files are unprocessed data and that you cannot see them until they are processed. I am not sure why. Probably because so many 3rd party programs struggle to display the various proprietary raw file formats. I often hear people say that raw files look flat and lifeless until they are processed. Well, Canon raw files never look flat and lifeless when opened with the right program - Canon's DPP But all image files are unprocessed data that you cannot see until they are processed.

Granted that DPP is showing a simulation when you open a raw file. But again, we are seeing a simulation when we look at any image file in any format.

Mike

nekon Loc: Carterton, New Zealand

The term is,not to give a monkey's bollocks, a cockney term, to not care.where only the first part of the phrase is necessary

rmorrison1116 Loc: Near Valley Forge, Pennsylvania

And you wonder why I make the dense comment. I apologized if my lack of tact offends you or anyone else.

Some people capitalize RAW and some people don't capitalize raw. Basically it is irrelevant. RAW and raw when referencing data mean the same thing.
Shooting JPEG is a figure of speech. It means the RAW data gathered from the image sensor is processed into a JPEG prior to being written to storage. Can you say, nit picking?!
There is nothing popular about saying RAW files are unprocessed. RAW files contain all the data. Think of a cake before it's baked. All the ingredients are together in a cake pan waiting to be processed in the oven. Once you've processed it, baked it, you can't get back to what it as prior to baking.
You are not sure why raw files can't be viewed. I know why and it's not guessing or speculation. The unprocessed data has to be processed, has to be turned into an image format. RAW is not an image format, it's the data that's used to create the formatted image file.
Data files do not have dimensional depth, they are indeed flat. Data files contain records of data. Depending on the file type, the data in the records is interpreted into a visual representation by programs designed to do so. Here's what DPP does. A RAW data file is read by DPP and the header data is loaded into the header work space in memory and the body of the RAW data file is read into the main work space. DPP, which is an application consisting of many programs, uses the header data to decipher the rest of the data. At this point, DPP will display an image it created using the RAW data, the header data and default settings used by the application. It's now up to the user to apply modifications to the image by altering the data in memory. When the image is done, all mods have been applied, the user chooses a format type such as JPEG or TIFF and if applicable, the amount of compression to be used while creating the physical data file.
The application is not showing a simulation, it is a visual representation. Think of a simulation as pretend, made up, not the real thing. DPP does not do that. The image it displays is a visual representation of the data. Nothing more, nothing less, nothing pretended.
Programs don't struggling, they work or they don't. By saying a program struggles to display data is anthropomorphising the program. Programs can't read certain data types because they weren't written to do so. No struggling involved.
Image files such as JPEG or JPG, or TIFF or TIF, or BMP or GIF or PNG or any of the dozens of other image file types all contain processed formatted data. The programs used to display the image know how to create a visual representation of the image because that's what they are designed to do. They are not processing the data in a way a program designed to modify the data and create image files, they are simply converting the data from it's stored format to its visual format.
And, for the icing on the cake, there is a big difference between image files and image formats. RAW files are image data files but RAW is NOT an image format. PNG, JPG, BMP, TIF, to name a few, these are image file types and image formats.

rmorrison1116 Loc: Near Valley Forge, Pennsylvania

The term is slightly different here than in New Zealand, by the way, beautiful country, and there are local variations all referencing different but similarly located parts of the monkeys anatomy. Quite often a rat is substituted for the monkey.

Blenheim Orange Loc: Michigan

I don't find your argument persuasive. You are merely repeating the same points over and over again. "Raw is not an image file." Yes, I could, as you say think of a raw file as a cake that hasn't been baked. But I don't find that metaphor useful. You may. By the way, I would have no problem with being wrong about this.

You say "DPP will display an image it created using the RAW data, the header data and default settings used by the application. It's now up to the user to apply modifications to the image by altering the data in memory." What modifications? No modifications are required.

Obviously, DPP is converting the data from the raw file into a visible image before any modification, without creating any JPEG, and without any "processing." How do I know? Because I can see it - in other words, it is visible as an image. A file that is visible under the right circumstances as an image is in fact an image file, or the term has no meaning at all.

You yourself just said "At this point, DPP will display an image it created using the RAW data." You then go on to say:

"It's now up to the user to apply modifications to the image by altering the data in memory. When the image is done, all mods have been applied, the user chooses a format type such as JPEG or TIFF and if applicable, the amount of compression to be used while creating the physical data file."

That, in actual practice for me, is simply not true. (((shrug))) I have no in-camera style presets going, I often apply no modifications at all, and yet I am looking at an image from a file that has a .cr suffix. Ergo, I can see the image from a raw file without any processing (other than whatever it is that Canon DPP does to read and display their CR2 files, of course). If DPP can read and display a raw file before any modifications or processing have happened, without any styles set in camera, then there is no intrinsic or inherent reason that other programs could not do exactly the same thing. What then makes a JPEG file an image file and a raw file not an image file? Nothing that I can see.

Mike

JD750 Loc: SoCal

I understood it without explanation. And I thought it was funny and directly to the point.

rmorrison1116 Loc: Near Valley Forge, Pennsylvania

I repeat myself because there are those who don't seem to get it.
Believe what you will, right, wrong or indifferent. I can't dumb it down anymore than I already have.
I've explained how in camera parameters are not used in RAW.
Ok, you can see RAW images without any processing. What part of, your own words, DPP does to read and display their CR2 files, isn't a form of processing!? DPP PROCESSES the data based on what is in the header record and factory defaults. No magic involved. I say that because, if no processing of any kind took place then the image must have appeared magically.
Programs only do what they are written to do; they don't think. I've written thousands upon thousands of programs over the years. I've got a wee bit of a clue how it works.
You apply no mods at all. Good for you! You're obviously fine with the factory defaults. They, Canon, do pride themselves in getting it right, or right enough, most of the time.
I didn't say RAW is not an image file for indeed it is. RAW is not an image FORMAT.

The data is imported into the computers memory by an application called DPP. This is Canon's free proprietary application for turning RAW image data into visual image data. Image files may be created by DPP or the data may simply be viewed using DPP. When DPP loads the data into its workspace, which is reserved locations in the computers memory and storage (that's called paging, or virtual memory), there is proprietary (and EXIF) data in the header record that tells DPP how to use the RAW data. DPP sends a whole bunch of data packets to the computers monitor. These data packets are in hexadecimal and the monitor uses the data to paint an image on to the screen. DPP has actually done a good bit of processing prior to sending the data to the monitor. DPP used the header data to determine where the unprocessed image data records begin and end and how to translate all the color codes. It's actually quite amazing all that's going on inside DPP'S virtual mind. The more instructions per second the computer is capable of executing, the faster the image appears on the screen.
There is a whole lot of stuff going on in the background that you don't see and a lot of people don't even know about.
There are lots of default instructions stored on the computer that DPP is running on and there are instructions in DPP'S code that can't be changed by the user. Most stored instructions or processing parameters may be modified and stored in what are called profiles. When using DPP the user may apply default settings to an image or they may choose profile settings or they may create whole new sets of settings to use in the future. By the way, using default settings is the default. Pretty much same as load data, do nothing, save as JPG or TIF or whatever...
I'm sure I omitted several steps in the process of creating the formatted image file but it should be enough to get maybe a tiny bit of an understanding of what's going on...

Blenheim Orange Loc: Michigan

I didn't say anything to the contrary.



No one can see any images without some program processing the data and displaying an image. As you say, no magic involved whether it be JPEG, TIFF, or raw files. You cannot see JPEGs without a program interpreting the data in the file.



Of course.



What are the factory defaults? Do you know? What does that even mean?



What is the difference? A file format is a specific structure or arrangement of data code stored as a computer file.



Sure. So what? There is a whole lot going on in the background in all computer operations that people don't see or even know about.



There are "default settings" in any and all computer operations. It is a meaningless thing to say.



Raw files are formatted. You don't have any moire idea what us going on than I do, because the creation and interpretation of the raw files is proprietary, unlike the creation and interpretation of JPEG files. You keep saying there is something special and magical about raw files, and that I cannot "see" them - even though I am looking at one right now in just exactly the same way that I can look at a JPEG - but you won't tell us what that special magical thing is.

You say you are just giving me a little information so that I get a tiny bit of understanding. Give us the whole explanation.

Mike

rmorrison1116 Loc: Near Valley Forge, Pennsylvania

I never said raw files aren't formatted.
Read your own words, they don't make sense.
I know exactly what's going on.
I said there is no magic involved.
The method used to convert the analog signals from the image sensor to digital is not proprietary.
The format of CR2 and NEF is proprietary.
I don't know and I don't care what you are looking at.
I don't believe you are capable of understanding.