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RAW and ISO and Processing -- Is there a difference?
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Apr 28, 2019 13:57:32   #
bonjac Loc: Santa Ynez, CA 93460
 
I am a neophyte, so patience, please. I have read that a sensor really only has base setting usually around ISO 100 and that settings higher than that are simply amplifications of the base data. My question is whether there is any difference between selecting an ISO in camera and shooting at base ISO and then adjusting exposure in RAW processing. It seems to me that in both cases, the base image is being amplified. I've tried a little experimentation but wasn't satisfied with the results. Thanks is advance.

Jack

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Apr 28, 2019 14:06:06   #
BebuLamar
 
There is a different if the camera amplified the signal before digitizing. There is not a different if the camera simply multiplied the output after digitizing. Multiplying doesn't increase the noise any more than amplify the signal but it will lose the number of bits to represent the values. In another word there will be fewer steps from dark to bright. Increasing the exposure in post is similar to multiplying.

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Apr 28, 2019 14:13:04   #
Bobspez Loc: Southern NJ, USA
 
Setting the iso and aperture and shutter speed in the camera to get as close to a good exposure as you can is best. If I increase exposure in post processing it seems to add noise. For underexposed pics I find the Photoshop auto tone can often correct the exposure with minimal noise added. If not, then brightness/contrast and shadows/highlights in Photoshop works well.

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Apr 28, 2019 14:30:00   #
PHRubin Loc: Nashville TN USA
 
WHy it makes a difference, I can't say. But it definately makes a difference.

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Apr 28, 2019 16:49:11   #
Gene51 Loc: Yonkers, NY, now in LSD (LowerSlowerDelaware)
 
bonjac wrote:
I am a neophyte, so patience, please. I have read that a sensor really only has base setting usually around ISO 100 and that settings higher than that are simply amplifications of the base data. My question is whether there is any difference between selecting an ISO in camera and shooting at base ISO and then adjusting exposure in RAW processing. It seems to me that in both cases, the base image is being amplified. I've tried a little experimentation but wasn't satisfied with the results. Thanks is advance.

Jack
I am a neophyte, so patience, please. I have read... (show quote)


in the simplest version, newer cameras are ISO invariant - they contribute so little noise of their own that using a camera that has a base ISO of 100 and UNDEREXPOSING a raw image by 5 stops, then adjusting it by +5 stops in post processing looks no different than had it been exposed using ISO 3200 in camera. My D810, the D500, D850, and others are ISO invariant.

Here is a pretty comprehensive article that explains sources of noise in an image where ISO invariance fits into the discussion.

https://photographylife.com/iso-invariance-explained

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Apr 28, 2019 19:01:40   #
CHG_CANON Loc: the Windy City
 
Check the list of ISO invariant cameras. If your camera is not on the list, end of discussion.

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Apr 29, 2019 06:46:40   #
mborn Loc: Massachusetts
 
Gene51 wrote:
in the simplest version, newer cameras are ISO invariant - they contribute so little noise of their own that using a camera that has a base ISO of 100 and UNDEREXPOSING a raw image by 5 stops, then adjusting it by +5 stops in post processing looks no different than had it been exposed using ISO 3200 in camera. My D810, the D500, D850, and others are ISO invariant.

Here is a pretty comprehensive article that explains sources of noise in an image where ISO invariance fits into the discussion.

https://photographylife.com/iso-invariance-explained
in the simplest version, newer cameras are ISO inv... (show quote)


Thanks

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Apr 29, 2019 06:52:09   #
jlg1000 Loc: Uruguay / South America
 
This is a comprehensive list of iso invariance DWC and noise for most cameras.

http://www.photonstophotos.net/Charts/Sensor_Characteristics.htm#Canon%20EOS%205D%20Mark%20IV_14

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Apr 29, 2019 08:56:18   #
jerryc41 Loc: Catskill Mts of NY
 
CHG_CANON wrote:
Check the list of ISO invariant cameras. If your camera is not on the list, end of discussion.


https://photographylife.com/iso-invariance-explained
https://digital-photography-school.com/iso-invariance-exposure-triangle/

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Apr 29, 2019 09:49:56   #
gvarner Loc: Central Oregon Coast
 
I stay out of the techno-trivia in photography. I got a D in Physics in college. 😜😜

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Apr 29, 2019 10:30:01   #
jlg1000 Loc: Uruguay / South America
 
I'll elaborate a bit on my previous post.

All camera sensors have one and only one sensitivity, which depends on the Quantum Efficiency, the Full Well Capacity of each pixel and the Conversion Noise.

The ISO value of a sensor is a fabrication which was made in the 90's (I believe by Kodak) to facilitate the transition of photographers from film to digital and still sticks around. Computer vision system cameras do no declare ISO values, because they are of no use to calculate the correct illumination and exposure values to feed the RAW data to some algorithm.

To attain some (made up) ISO value, the camera performs a two stage process:
1) Amplification of the analog signal produced by each individual photodiode in the sensor
2) Normalization, which means multiplication by some numerical constant

There is a practical limit to amplification which is dictated by the maximum signal amplitude that the ADC converter can manage. Beyond that, only normalization is possible.

*BUT* by normalizing, the camera is doing exactly the same procedure than increasing the exposure value in any post processing software (Lightroo, CaptureOne, etc.)

So we can divide the ISO value in two ranges:
1) LOW ISO: Less than ISO invariance threshold (amplification dominates)
2) HIGH ISO: More than ISO invariance threshold (normalization dominates)

The HIGH ISO range is only of interest when shooting JPEG, because all the Post Process is done in camera, and a final developed image is produced. There is no intention to perform PP at a later stage, so the product is final.

But when shooting RAW, using HIGH ISO is of no use whatsoever, because PP in camera does the same operation than PP in a computer.

If you are shooting RAW, of course your are *planning* to perform some Post Process, in which case it is better to never ever use HIGH ISO, because:
1) Trying to conform the exposure triangle, HIGH ISO will probably blow up the highlights
2) HIGH ISO will create noise which could be better handled by a full blown PC than a the small CPU in the camera.

In the PC you can manually enhance the shadows and the midtones without burning up the detail in the highlights. You can create masks (Capture ONE, ON1, PS, Affinity, etc.) and reveal detail of select features of the photograph without introducing noise in the rest. You can then dampen the noise only in the areas where it is visible, without softening the whole photo.

I'd recommend always to stop at the ISO invariance threshold and then PP. Then you-ll have all the headroom to perform PP as you wish... Just set the maximum ISO at that value.

This link has the ISO invariance threshold for most cameras:
http://www.photonstophotos.net/Charts/Sensor_Characteristics.htm

Just click on your model or look in the table at the bottom of the page. The "Unity ISO" will be the threshold value which divides the LOW and HIGH ISO ranges. Just don't increase ISO beyond that value if you are shooting RAW and plan to post process later.

Hope this clarifies the subject.

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Apr 29, 2019 10:38:01   #
Blair Shaw Jr Loc: Dunnellon,Florida
 
jlg1000 wrote:
This is a comprehensive list of iso invariance DWC and noise for most cameras.

http://www.photonstophotos.net/Charts/Sensor_Characteristics.htm#Canon%20EOS%205D%20Mark%20IV_14


WOW ....I just pulled up your chart @ DxO and was impressed with the data but I have No Idea what it's trying to tell me. I will now have to do my homework ...so much to know & understand with this tech-stuff........incredible.


THANX

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Apr 29, 2019 10:47:58   #
CHG_CANON Loc: the Windy City
 
jlg1000 wrote:
I'll elaborate a bit on my previous post.

All camera sensors have one and only one sensitivity, which depends on the Quantum Efficiency, the Full Well Capacity of each pixel and the Conversion Noise.

The ISO value of a sensor is a fabrication which was made in the 90's (I believe by Kodak) to facilitate the transition of photographers from film to digital and still sticks around. Computer vision system cameras do no declare ISO values, because they are of no use to calculate the correct illumination and exposure values to feed the RAW data to some algorithm.

To attain some (made up) ISO value, the camera performs a two stage process:
1) Amplification of the analog signal produced by each individual photodiode in the sensor
2) Normalization, which means multiplication by some numerical constant

There is a practical limit to amplification which is dictated by the maximum signal amplitude that the ADC converter can manage. Beyond that, only normalization is possible.

*BUT* by normalizing, the camera is doing exactly the same procedure than increasing the exposure value in any post processing software (Lightroo, CaptureOne, etc.)

So we can divide the ISO value in two ranges:
1) LOW ISO: Less than ISO invariance threshold (amplification dominates)
2) HIGH ISO: More than ISO invariance threshold (normalization dominates)

The HIGH ISO range is only of interest when shooting JPEG, because all the Post Process is done in camera, and a final developed image is produced. There is no intention to perform PP at a later stage, so the product is final.

But when shooting RAW, using HIGH ISO is of no use whatsoever, because PP in camera does the same operation than PP in a computer.

If you are shooting RAW, of course your are *planning* to perform some Post Process, in which case it is better to never ever use HIGH ISO, because:
1) Trying to conform the exposure triangle, HIGH ISO will probably blow up the highlights
2) HIGH ISO will create noise which could be better handled by a full blown PC than a the small CPU in the camera.

In the PC you can manually enhance the shadows and the midtones without burning up the detail in the highlights. You can create masks (Capture ONE, ON1, PS, Affinity, etc.) and reveal detail of select features of the photograph without introducing noise in the rest. You can then dampen the noise only in the areas where it is visible, without softening the whole photo.

I'd recommend always to stop at the ISO invariance threshold and then PP. Then you-ll have all the headroom to perform PP as you wish... Just set the maximum ISO at that value.

This link has the ISO invariance threshold for most cameras:
http://www.photonstophotos.net/Charts/Sensor_Characteristics.htm

Just click on your model or look in the table at the bottom of the page. The "Unity ISO" will be the threshold value which divides the LOW and HIGH ISO ranges. Just don't increase ISO beyond that value if you are shooting RAW and plan to post process later.

Hope this clarifies the subject.
I'll elaborate a bit on my previous post. br br A... (show quote)


Interesting discussion. The idea would benefit from actual examples of the theory in practice, before and after, either your own or a reference to a site with such examples. Images of something, not DXO lines on charts ....

One of the links earlier does have some landscape examples: https://photographylife.com/iso-invariance-explained

But, what about other types of photography? What about a greater movement in post, say 5-stops from ISO-100 to something that should have been ISO-3200? If that's too much movement, how about 2-stops like the landscape examples, such as captured at ISO-800 and adjust by 2-stops to what should / could be ISO-3200?

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Apr 29, 2019 11:24:26   #
BebuLamar
 
I did a test with my Nikon Df at ISO 100 and 1600. Setting the aperture and shutter speed for the ISO 1600 shot and keep the same for the ISO 100 shot then adjust the exposure by +4 in post. The 2 images are very close to each other although I can see the one shot at ISO 1600 is slightly better.

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Apr 29, 2019 11:34:54   #
jlg1000 Loc: Uruguay / South America
 
BebuLamar wrote:
I did a test with my Nikon Df at ISO 100 and 1600. Setting the aperture and shutter speed for the ISO 1600 shot and keep the same for the ISO 100 shot then adjust the exposure by +4 in post. The 2 images are very close to each other although I can see the one shot at ISO 1600 is slightly better.


Hi!

According to the chart, the Df has an ISO invariance Threshold of 1786, so between 100 and 1600 there will be different outcomes by increasing the ISO in the camera vs PP.

You should see no more significant differences by using ISO values above 1600. E.g: a shot made at ISO 3200 should look the same than another made at ISO 1600 and enhanced +2 EV in post.

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