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My RAW question for the day.
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Apr 21, 2019 12:20:35   #
kymarto Loc: Portland OR and Milan Italy
 
Longshadow wrote:
I have a Canon and use DPP for editing the RAW.
I don't have LR. But even if my other three editors would work with the CR2 file, but I prefer to use DPP as Canon made it explicitly for [[i]their[/i] RAW files.


Worth noting here that as long as a raw file will open in a raw editor it doesn't matter which editor it is. It is possible that Canon has optimized the initial state of the image for immediate viewing in their software, but this is just the initial stage, and unless you never do anything with your raw but convert it straight it doesn't matter. The fact is that LR is tremendously more powerful than any proprietary editor, so if you are going to be doing any kind of PP or optimization you are better off with LR.

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Apr 21, 2019 12:51:57   #
Resqu2 Loc: SW Va
 
amfoto1 wrote:
I assume "CDPP" is "Canon Digital Photo Pro" RAW converter... (I've seen it called "DPP"... but never seen "CDPP" before now).

Anyway, I've used DPP in the past... But only with high ISO images because the Noise Reduction in it was better than in earlier versions of LR and PS. After dealing with the noise in images, I passed them off (as a TIFF) to PS for finishing.

However, since CS5 and, probably LR5, I've found they do better with noise and have stopped using DPP at all. And I've since added Imagenomic Noiseware plug in to Photoshop and that works great for the highest ISO images I do.

If you are doing "paid work", you are making key two mistakes.

1. LR is only half the process. There is NO WAY most images can be completely finished in it. PS is necessary, to complement LR and complete image post-processing.

2. You shouldn't do post-processing on a portable tablet or laptop. You need a fixed work-station in controlled and consistent lighting conditions with a calibrated monitor. Otherwise you will constantly mis-adjust your images.

The problem with a tablet or laptop is keeping them calibrated. Ever time you move to a different location with different lighting, you really should be re-calibrating the screen. You also change your viewing angle all too easily with portables, which skews what you are seeing. So even if you were to calibrate every time you move, you'd still have problems.

Some people use an external monitor set up in a permanent location with a laptop. But to do that requires a laptop capable of handling an external monitor and I don't know if this is even a possibility with a tablet.

Your post-processing will be "all over the place", wrong more often than it's right, as long as you're working with an uncalibratable portable.

You might even be better shooting RAW + JPEG and seeing if the JPEGs are better for your customers. (Some customers... particularly commercial users... require 16 bit TIFFs instead of 8 bit JPEGs. They also may need a different color space such as CMYK. Can't do those properly without a calibrated work station.)

In addition, there's a lot of post-process "finishing" work that simply can't be done in LR. Yes, it's a great organizer and is fine for the global adjustments, setting up a crop, straightening and a few other things. But it's fine retouching tools and such are crude by comparison to PS. LR also can't work in layers for selective adjustments. PS and LR are designed to complement each other. I can't recall the last time I exported an image directly from LR and called it "finished". I do export small "proof" and "catalog" size images from LR with only minimal work on them.... But every image that I finish for higher end-use such as a print or a digital file for a customer is ALWAYS handed off from LR to Photoshop for completion.
I assume "CDPP" is "Canon Digital P... (show quote)


Lots of great info in your post and I thank you for taking time to explain all that. That’s what makes this site so great! I will add that the end use of photos I take for people are 90 percent to share on SM and they will pick out a handful and print some 4x6’s or 8x10’s and put them in a frame. As for commercial type work I’m not looking for that at all and would leave that up to someone who knows lots more than me and they would charge accordingly I’m sure.

Not sure how to word this to where is doesn’t sound bad but I’m in rural SW Va and lots of people can’t afford what the full time professional guys and gals charge. I basically try to help out the ones who have already called the well knows pros and fell over at what they want for a session and couldn’t swing it if they had to. I will give them a good price for an hour session and show them a large group of various photographs and let them know up front that this is what they can expect to get for the price they pay. So far no complaints and honestly if someone told me that what I did for them wasn’t what they expected or they wasn’t happy with them I’d not charge them a dime. Hope this clarifies what I do a little.

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Apr 21, 2019 13:03:18   #
mwsilvers Loc: Central New Jersey
 
AntonioReyna wrote:
I have bought many Canons and have never used their software, although I am told it is quite good. I use Photoshop and always shoot JPEG + RAW.


I wouldn't say it is "quite good" overall, but it can achieve good result on a variety of images, especially those where Canon lenses were used. DPP has a proprietary lens tuning/sharpening algorithm, specifically for Canon lenses, which works quite well. But DPP also has a number of limitations. It's missing many important features available in other raw processors and the range of its tools are limited. As an example recovering detail from deep shadow areas is very limited as is noise reduction.

One nice plus for some DPP users is that since the only raw files it supports are proprietary Canon files, it does not support a database or sidecar files. It writes all updates directly to the raw file so that if one copies the edited raw file to another computer and edits its in DPP there, all the edits are carried over. Third party software, like Adobe products, completely ignores any edits made in DPP, and from within DPP the raw file can be restored to its original state.

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Apr 21, 2019 13:19:39   #
mwsilvers Loc: Central New Jersey
 
kymarto wrote:
Worth noting here that as long as a raw file will open in a raw editor it doesn't matter which editor it is. It is possible that Canon has optimized the initial state of the image for immediate viewing in their software, but this is just the initial stage, and unless you never do anything with your raw but convert it straight it doesn't matter. The fact is that LR is tremendously more powerful than any proprietary editor, so if you are going to be doing any kind of PP or optimization you are better off with LR.
Worth noting here that as long as a raw file will ... (show quote)


I have to disagree with your assertion that it doesn't make any difference which raw editor you use. It can make a big difference, Tests by independent reviewers, as well as many users, have determined that the best raw conversions are done in Capture One Pro 12, DXO PhotoLab, and LR/PS. I've tested nine different raw converters extensively and can confirm that. I currently own licenses for Photolab Elite and ON1 and there is no comparison between the far superior quality of DXO's unedited raw conversions compared to ON1's. I hope over time that the very promising ON1 will improve in that regard.

With regard to DPP, it actually has proprietary lens optimization that only works on Canon lenses and is quite effective. Among the things that optimization of a lens accomplishes is the extraction of a kind of pin point sharpening from a lens without adding any traditional edge contrast. Its as if a slight veil has been lifted from the image. Every image I've ever used it on has benefited. Since no sharpening is actually applied, there are none of the artifacts of sharpening. Canon suggests that sharpening should not be applied prior to lens optimization, but if still necessary it can be added afterwards. DPP allows you to download optimization files for specific lenses as the algorithm applies different set of adjustments for each lens. Unfortunately, no third party lenses are supported.

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Apr 21, 2019 14:29:57   #
jwn Loc: SOUTHEAST GEORGIA USA
 
several of the in camera settings will not carry over to lightroom. read the manual

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Apr 21, 2019 14:36:08   #
Resqu2 Loc: SW Va
 
jwn wrote:
several of the in camera settings will not carry over to lightroom. read the manual


Probable a question for another thread (or the manual if I can find it there) but I’d love to know more about your statement as I’d read that in several places. My 5D4 is full of camera settings and I’d love to know which ones to not even bother with when shooting RAW to LR.

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Apr 21, 2019 14:41:01   #
jwn Loc: SOUTHEAST GEORGIA USA
 
Some of the setting that will not carry over with third party software are high iso noise reduction, auto lighting optimizer, lens aberration corrections, picture style, white balance. Most of the canon camera patented data is lost. Coca Cola or store brand cola???

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Apr 21, 2019 14:46:20   #
jwn Loc: SOUTHEAST GEORGIA USA
 
EOS Magazine Online had article about why to use Dpp4 before moving to lr or ps, it may be in the archives ??

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Apr 21, 2019 14:51:44   #
mwsilvers Loc: Central New Jersey
 
jwn wrote:
Some of the setting that will not carry over with third party software are high iso noise reduction, auto lighting optimizer, lens aberration corrections, picture style, white balance. Most of the canon camera patented data is lost. Coca Cola or store brand cola???


Sharpness, contrast, saturation, color tone will also not be carried over. In addition, specifically for the 5D Mark IV, Dual Pixel Raw settings.

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Apr 21, 2019 15:29:42   #
Resqu2 Loc: SW Va
 
jwn wrote:
Some of the setting that will not carry over with third party software are high iso noise reduction, auto lighting optimizer, lens aberration corrections, picture style, white balance. Most of the canon camera patented data is lost. Coca Cola or store brand cola???


So basically get the triangle right and don’t even look at anything else if I’m going straight to LR? I’m doing a prom shoot this Saturday and a street festival so I may try the Canon software on at least some of them. Thanks for all the info guys!

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Apr 21, 2019 15:38:32   #
JD750 Loc: SoCal
 
The Manuf’s software will give you the absolute best color and the most options, because they know the secret to their raw encryption. All the after-market software vendors have to reverse engineer it. However the Manuf’s software is often clunky, slow and crash prone. The differences can be minor and subtle so the question is are you happy with what you have? Have you identified any specific issues for you?

My concern would be editing on a device that is not calibrated. Hopefully you are calibrating your iPad because a color shift due to an out-of-cal display can be a much bigger difference than that between manuf and after-market software renderings.

The good news is the iPads are pretty good out of the box. But if your selling images, you probably would benefit form giving some thought to display calibration and how maintain it.

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Apr 21, 2019 15:39:22   #
kymarto Loc: Portland OR and Milan Italy
 
mwsilvers wrote:
I have to disagree with your assertion that it doesn't make any difference which raw editor you use. It can make a big difference, Tests by independent reviewers, as well as many users, have determined that the best raw conversions are done in Capture One Pro 12, DXO PhotoLab, and LR/PS. I've tested nine different raw converters extensively and can confirm that. I currently own licenses for Photolab Elite and ON1 and there is no comparison between the far superior quality of DXO's unedited raw conversions compared to ON1's. I hope over time that the very promising ON1 will improve in that regard.

With regard to DPP, it actually has proprietary lens optimization that only works on Canon lenses and is quite effective. Among the things that optimization of a lens accomplishes is the extraction of a kind of pin point sharpening from a lens without adding any traditional edge contrast. Its as if a slight veil has been lifted from the image. Every image I've ever used it on has benefited. Since no sharpening is actually applied, there are none of the artifacts of sharpening. Canon suggests that sharpening should not be applied prior to lens optimization, but if still necessary it can be added afterwards. DPP allows you to download optimization files for specific lenses as the algorithm applies different set of adjustments for each lens. Unfortunately, no third party lenses are supported.
I have to disagree with your assertion that it doe... (show quote)


As to strict raw conversions--you are correct that there are some differences in the way raws are processed into viewable images, this is true. However much has to do with the controls available in the raw editor itself. I've done testing of several raw editors, and own DxO and LR/PS. Differences between those are minor, at the end of the day, although they do start from different places, so to speak.

If the Canon s/w has proprietary algorithms for their lenses, then indeed there is some merit in starting there. Better yet might be to go with DxO, which has modules not only for lenses, but for lenses on various bodies. Those modules, and I guess those in the Canon s/w, are specifically tailored to correct the peccadilloes of various lenses. As to the sharpening, there are various third party solutions that do the same, including Piccure+, Focus Magic, and a new one from Topaz called Sharpen AI, which is truly amazing, but extremely processing intensive.

If the Canon s/w gives the OP enough control of processing parameters, it probably is a better solution for correcting lens faults (though Photoshop also has many profiles in its lens filter). The sad thing is that you can't process in Canon and save out as a raw to work with in LR or PS or DxO. So it's kind of six of one, half dozen of another.

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Apr 21, 2019 15:52:55   #
kymarto Loc: Portland OR and Milan Italy
 
Resqu2 wrote:
Probable a question for another thread (or the manual if I can find it there) but I’d love to know more about your statement as I’d read that in several places. My 5D4 is full of camera settings and I’d love to know which ones to not even bother with when shooting RAW to LR.


Any picture settings such as "vivid" "neutral" etc. Any contrast, sharpness or color settings. No need to white balance, as raws contain the possibility of any white balance.

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Apr 21, 2019 15:59:39   #
kymarto Loc: Portland OR and Milan Italy
 
JD750 wrote:
The Manuf’s software will give you the absolute best color and the most options, because they know the secret to their raw encryption. All the after-market software vendors have to reverse engineer it. However the Manuf’s software is often clunky, slow and crash prone. The differences can be minor and subtle so the question is are you happy with what you have? Have you identified any specific issues for you?

My concern would be editing on a device that is not calibrated. Hopefully you are calibrating your iPad because a color shift due to an out-of-cal display can be a much bigger difference than that between manuf and after-market software renderings.

The good news is the iPads are pretty good out of the box. But if your selling images, you probably would benefit form giving some thought to display calibration and how maintain it.
The Manuf’s software will give you the absolute be... (show quote)


I dispute some of this. There is no "secret" to any raw encryption. It is a code that translates numerical photosite data into chroma and luma values. The immediate image presented for viewing might be different, but the possibility of converting a given photosite's numbers into the same chroma and luma values does exist in other s/w. This is akin to saying that a Nikon or Canon lens necessarily works better on a Nikon or Canon camera than a third party lens, because the manufacturer know the secret of its sensor and electronics. OEM s/w usually does not contain anywhere near the flexibility of a good suite like DxO or LR. It can, like the Canon s/w, be optimized for their cameras' output, or do lens corrections on their specific lenses, and that can be useful and a time saver. But there are notable advantages to editing in a third party suite.

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Apr 21, 2019 16:20:17   #
mwsilvers Loc: Central New Jersey
 
kymarto wrote:
As to strict raw conversions--you are correct that there are some differences in the way raws are processed into viewable images, this is true. However much has to do with the controls available in the raw editor itself. I've done testing of several raw editors, and own DxO and LR/PS. Differences between those are minor, at the end of the day, although they do start from different places, so to speak.

If the Canon s/w has proprietary algorithms for their lenses, then indeed there is some merit in starting there. Better yet might be to go with DxO, which has modules not only for lenses, but for lenses on various bodies. Those modules, and I guess those in the Canon s/w, are specifically tailored to correct the peccadilloes of various lenses. As to the sharpening, there are various third party solutions that do the same, including Piccure+, Focus Magic, and a new one from Topaz called Sharpen AI, which is truly amazing, but extremely processing intensive.

If the Canon s/w gives the OP enough control of processing parameters, it probably is a better solution for correcting lens faults (though Photoshop also has many profiles in its lens filter). The sad thing is that you can't process in Canon and save out as a raw to work with in LR or PS or DxO. So it's kind of six of one, half dozen of another.
As to strict raw conversions--you are correct that... (show quote)

I agree. With regard to raw conversions your experience is with two of the three best converters so its not surprising that the differences you see between the two are minimal.

Unfortunately, there are no perfect PP solutions, although some may come closer than others. Each of us, once we have experience with a variety of the options available, needs to choose a process flow that we are comfortable with using and which provides us with satisfying results. Ten experienced photographers may choose ten different paths to reach those results.

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