Architect1776 Loc: In my mind

buckbrush Loc: Texas then Southwest Oregon

[quote=bodiebill]Like other commercial products that require government involvement it requires cooperation and good relations between the company and government.
Both have weaknesses. The government being too bureaucratic with no personal liability when things go wrong, and business too focused on cost reduction for maximum profit.

Bodiebill is exactly correct.
The agency in the FAA that certifies aircraft consists of Engineering and Quality in one entity. No matter what anyone says, because both departments report to the same head, the prevailing thoughts within the agency is always to help the other department finish the certification process by letting what are considered to be (at the time), insignificant problems to be corrected sometime later.

The fact is, once an aircraft receives its Type and Airworthiness certificate the rush to correct those little niggling problems move to the back burner within virtually every manufacturer.
Thats how the Flight Manual never was updated until after these accidents occurred.

Dikdik Loc: Winnipeg, Canada

Looking at my dad's old log books from his time in the RCAF during WW2, he has certifications for some planes where the total time was a day or less... agree that planes were more simple back then... and maybe certification, too.

Dik

Dikdik Loc: Winnipeg, Canada

Have you looked at the news lately? There may be an element of truth.

Dik

Architect1776 Loc: In my mind

Operative words WWII.

scooter1 Loc: Yacolt, Wa.

Very well put! This is the sad state we're in now.

mas24 Loc: Southern CA

Yes, aircrafts were simple back then. Propellers. Mostly one or two seats for the pilot. And, they could jump out of their planes with a parachute. That's no comparison to a jet plane, carrying 189 passengers, with digital components, flying 35,000+ feet, and flying at 500+ mph.

scooter1 Loc: Yacolt, Wa.

Who rates these? I checked out quite a few on different lists and completely disagree with many having done business with some and been very dissatisfied. Just curious

Notorious T.O.D. Loc: Harrisburg, North Carolina

I will contend that the FAA also doesn’t want to do anything that will reflect poorly on the FAA and what it did or didn’t do in situations. The FAA is no bastion of virtue either. Frankly it is sad when people die but from the US government’s view over 7,000 Americans die every day. That is a fact and doesn’t count the aborted babies killed each day. Democrats are supposedly concerned about Russians meddling in our election yet want to allow illegals to vote in them... Does that make any logical sense?

There is risk in life every step of the way and all risks cannot be eliminated; by government or companies. I will still say that the biggest factor in these crashes was human error. It usually is in plane crashes. Nobody seems to be beating up Airbus but my friends in the industry call them scuds... you know where they take off but you are not sure where they are going to land. Yet I have flown many trips on them...such is life.

scooter1 Loc: Yacolt, Wa.

About the dems being concerned about Russian meddling, how about the Clintons buying the fake dossier from the russians. Prime example of meddling in my book. So where's the investigation? Also spot on about the FAA. Used to work for them.

Notorious T.O.D. Loc: Harrisburg, North Carolina

Yes, I worked with the FAA on a project about 20 years ago. I have a good friend in the Airline maintenance and training field. He knew the top people in both the FAA and NTSB for decades. He has testified before congress a few times. He laughed when he saw the video cartoon of TWA 800 continuing to climb after the front 1/3 was gone... I won't hold government agencies above commercial enterprises, ever. There is a lot of international politics involved here too in my opinion. European countries have a lot invested in keeping Airbus going against Boeing...

The democrats are just losing their minds more and more each day...

ntonkin Loc: western Upper Peninusla of Michigan

I don't think there is anyone that doesn't recognize that third world airlines have few experienced pilots. There is a shortage of pilots world wide. If you look at the ages of the two captains of the planes that crashed, they are very young by U.S. standards. This has no bearing on Boeing selling aircraft with a defective MCAS system. At this point in time I've neither heard nor read of anyone who doesn't agree that the MCAS system is defective - whether it's software or sensors or both along with who knows what else.

It seems that few people here fully understand the implications this failure of Boeing and federal regulators and what is has done to the status of this nation worldwide. Neither Canada nor Europe trust our country to adequately test aircraft for public transportation use. Ethiopia refused to send the black box to our country - sent it to France instead. THIS IS SHAMEFUL THAT OUR COUNTRY HAS COME TO THIS.

mas24 Loc: Southern CA

I did see that on the TV News, that Ethiopia sent the Black Box to France, instead of the USA. After all, it was an American manufactured aircraft? I just assumed they sent it to France, because it was closer in distance. Stay tuned to your TV News, or newspapers. This Boeing story is not over yet.

pendennis

That's not the Conservative's point of view.

What you're seeing is Fascism at its worst. "Big Industry" is no longer entrepreneurial. They've become risk averse, allowing the Government to run things in disguise as "Government Regulations" and creating an unholy alliance which keeps competition out. It's happened to "Big Pharma", Auto, Aerospace, Steel, etc. By companies not fighting regulation, they take the risk out of failure in the market.

Big Pharma benefits from the corruption of the patent process. Right now, instead of a patent being allowed to lapse on a timely basis, the drug companies make just enough "changes" to drugs, and then refile for a full extension of the patent. This does cut both ways, since foreign governments often don't recognize the patents, and force drug companies to keep R&D costs in the U.S., causing American consumers to pay more for drugs. The foreign governments allow their producers to "reverse engineer" the drugs, and then threaten to allow their companies to sell the stolen patented drugs.

Large endeavors are capital intensive, but the government allowing consolidations (Boeing bought McDonnell-Douglas, Fiat bought Chrysler, etc.) has taken all the risk out of real market competition. The Feds bailed out Chrysler, GM, and a number of banks, making the statement "too big to fail" the watchword.

These are only the latest iterations. Mergers in the 1970's helped create the conglomerates, which contrary to popular thought, weren't immune to ups and downs in the economy. The growth of the Federal Government alphabet agencies has helped create a nightmare (EPA, OSHA, etc.).

And, before that, FDR allowed for the creation of cartels during the Great Depression. Not only did they drive out the smaller companies trying to survive, they illegally set prices and volumes, all under the guise and blessing of the Federal Government (NRA).

Whatever the costs are for Boeing, they'll be tax deductible and that will induce more bad behavior. There'll be a lot of breast beating and thunderous oration, but in the end, things just get cozier and cozier between the corporations and government.

Notorious T.O.D. Loc: Harrisburg, North Carolina

I am convinced that Boeing getting McDonnell Douglas was a result of Boeing taking the hit for TWA 800. Of course TWA got a bunch of new Boeing planes in that deal too... The consolidation map of the aerospace industry is very interesting over the last 50-60 years...