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The Onset of Noise, and its relationship to high-density high-megapixel sensors
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Mar 15, 2019 20:11:22   #
Chris T Loc: from England across the pond to New England
 
RichardTaylor wrote:
This statement not entirely correct.
Fans in PCs are used to keep the temperature down so the electronic components will not overheat and stop working or to fail prematurely..


You're right, Richard - I had "noise" on the brain, when I wrote that. Of course - it should've been "heat."

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Mar 15, 2019 20:26:14   #
CO
 
You can see the difference in signal to noise ratio in DxO labs testing. I loaded the Nikon D750 (5.97 micron pixels), and the Nikon D7200 (3.92 micron pixels) into their sensor comparison tool. Full frame cameras always have a higher signal to noise ratio.

Red line - D750 Orange line - D7200
Red line - D750  Orange line - D7200...
(Download)

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Mar 15, 2019 20:54:07   #
Strodav Loc: Houston, Tx
 
The paradigm of sensor pixel size (pixel density) holds true in general, but there are significant variations sensor to sensor and manufacturer to manufacturer so I rely on SNR measurements from a reputable testing organization like DxOMark.com to show me how well a sensor and camera perform. Some manufacturers seem to be able to build better sensors and use them more effectively than other manufacturers.

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Mar 16, 2019 02:46:43   #
RichardTaylor Loc: Sydney, Australia
 
From personal experience and use (always shooting raw).
From worst to best.
C2005 Canon 350D 22.2x14.8mm sensor size - 8MP (**)
C2009 Canon G11 P&S - 10MP (not a huge ammount of difference between these two. (**)
C2007 Canon 40D 22.2x14.8mm sensor size - 10.1MP
C2005 Canon 5D 35.8x23.9mm sensor size - 12.8mp - Full frame and a big step up image wise from the above cameras.
C2015 Olympus OM-D E-M5 II 17.3 x 13 mm (M4/3) - 16MP
C2013 Canon 70D 22.5 x 15mm (APS-C) - 20MP (I feel it is about 1 stop better in noise performance than the Olympus body above), however there are other factors that increase usability, in the real world, for a lot of my shooting needs (not all) - by using the Olympus bodies.

As the above shows a smaller MP camera is not necessarily better noise wise than a larger sensor camera (from using my own cameras).
(see my first post in this thread)

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Mar 16, 2019 05:40:20   #
Chris T Loc: from England across the pond to New England
 
CO wrote:
You can see the difference in signal to noise ratio in DxO labs testing. I loaded the Nikon D750 (5.97 micron pixels), and the Nikon D7200 (3.92 micron pixels) into their sensor comparison tool. Full frame cameras always have a higher signal to noise ratio.


Thanks, CO … you know, even with the assumed difference, from one being FF and the other being DX - there does not seem to be a GREAT deal of difference, between the two, overall - does there, CO?

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Mar 16, 2019 05:47:30   #
Chris T Loc: from England across the pond to New England
 
RichardTaylor wrote:
From personal experience and use (always shooting raw).
From worst to best.
C2005 Canon 350D 22.2x14.8mm sensor size - 8MP (**)
C2009 Canon G11 P&S - 10MP (not a huge ammount of difference between these two. (**)
C2007 Canon 40D 22.2x14.8mm sensor size - 10.1MP
C2005 Canon 5D 35.8x23.9mm sensor size - 12.8mp - Full frame and a big step up image wise from the above cameras.
C2015 Olympus OM-D E-M5 II 17.3 x 13 mm (M4/3) - 16MP
C2013 Canon 70D 22.5 x 15mm (APS-C) - 20MP (I feel it is about 1 stop better in noise performance than the Olympus body above), however there are other factors that increase usability, in the real world, for a lot of my shooting needs (not all) - by using the Olympus bodies.

As the above shows a smaller MP camera is not necessarily better noise wise than a larger sensor camera (from using my own cameras).
(see my first post in this thread)
From personal experience and use (always shooting ... (show quote)


Very interesting, there, Richard … so, overall - you feel the 70D is best on noise performance. Too bad, you don't have any 24MP bodies, there, as I'd like to see how you think they compare w/ the others ….

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Mar 16, 2019 05:53:44   #
RichardTaylor Loc: Sydney, Australia
 
Chris T wrote:
Very interesting, there, Richard … so, overall - you feel the 70D is best on noise performance. Too bad, you don't have any 24MP bodies, there, as I'd like to see how you think they compare w/ the others ….



Only for the digital cameras I have owned.

It's not what I feel it's what I know from shooting in the real world.
If you never shoot at high - to very high ISO values it may not really matter, and I am not a camera collector.

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Mar 16, 2019 06:47:47   #
steve49 Loc: massachusetts
 
In any tech related product I think newer will generally be better.
A lot newer will be a lot better....

Maybe not in airplanes though.

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Mar 16, 2019 07:30:15   #
Notorious T.O.D. Loc: Harrisburg, North Carolina
 
My Canon 1D MkIII is 10mp and several generations older than my 1Dx MkII which is twice the megapixels. But while both are low noise leaders in their generation/build era there is no comparison between the two. The MkII is vastly more capable of high ISO shooting than the MkIII. I would say the MkIII is good to ISO 800 or perhaps 1,600 while the MkII is easily capable of ISO 25,000.

Technology marches forward. It is best to compare cameras of the same era and generation in my view. Also note that the MkII is full frame sensor and the MkIII is an APS-H sensor, 1.3x crop factor. The 1Ds was the same era as the MkIII but probably had slightly better ISO performance. I have not owned one nor compared the specs, but the MkIII was built for speed and the 1Ds not as much. They merged into one 1 series body with the 1Dx I believe.

Chris T wrote:
I tend to think my lowly 12MP Canon EOS Rebel T3 does a better job of decreasing the noise issue, than ANY of my four 24MP Nikons, Richard … and that the one 16MP Nikon I have - withholds the onset of noise much sooner than any of the other DSLRs I possess - including the equal sensor Pentax K-50.

But, this isn't meant to be an expose of my cameras, Richard. It's meant to be a reaching out for a more clear explanation of why lesser-megapixel cameras (12MP-16MP) seem to do a better job of controlling the noise issue, than more recent 24MP-42MP/46MP/50MP cameras. Since the pixel-sites are smaller, for each newer generation of hi-res sensors - it would seem to be MORE difficult to control noise, as the high density pixels - are more apt to show noise at a sooner point. Thus, if one pursues the MP race - one is actually wounding oneself, in the process, and, perhaps, might've been better off, saving one's money.
I tend to think my lowly 12MP Canon EOS Rebel T3 d... (show quote)

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Mar 16, 2019 07:35:57   #
CO
 
Chris T wrote:
Thanks, CO … you know, even with the assumed difference, from one being FF and the other being DX - there does not seem to be a GREAT deal of difference, between the two, overall - does there, CO?


There does seem to be a significant difference. I added the medium format Hasselblad X1D-50c to the comparison. This is from their explanation about the noise:

DxOMark has three dotted lines on the graph, a green line, a yellow line, and a red line. Above the green line, photos taken at those ISOs will be relatively free of noise. Under the green line noise will be noticeable. Under the yellow line noise will be quite noticeable, but not catastrophic. And under the red line noise will be dramatic.

I took the chart into Microsoft Paint and drew wider, solid lines over their dotted lines are because their lines are so faint, they're hard to see. You can still see part of their dotted lines over on the right side of the graph.

Noise quite noticeable in the D7200 starting around ISO 800
Noise quite noticeable in the D750 starting around ISO 2200
Noise quite noticeable in the Hasselblad starting around ISO 2600

(Orange line - Hasselblad X1D-50c) (Yellow line - D750) (Red line - D7200)
(Orange line - Hasselblad X1D-50c)    (Yellow line...
(Download)

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Mar 16, 2019 08:06:23   #
CO
 
Notorious T.O.D. wrote:
My Canon 1D MkIII is 10mp and several generations older than my 1Dx MkII which is twice the megapixels. But while both are low noise leaders in their generation/build era there is no comparison between the two. The MkII is vastly more capable of high ISO shooting than the MkIII. I would say the MkIII is good to ISO 800 or perhaps 1,600 while the MkII is easily capable of ISO 25,000.

Technology marches forward. It is best to compare cameras of the same era and generation in my view. Also note that the MkII is full frame sensor and the MkIII is an APS-H sensor, 1.3x crop factor. The 1Ds was the same era as the MkIII but probably had slightly better ISO performance. I have not owned one nor compared the specs, but the MkIII was built for speed and the 1Ds not as much. They merged into one 1 series body with the 1Dx I believe.
My Canon 1D MkIII is 10mp and several generations ... (show quote)


I was curious what DxO testing showed for signal to noise ratio of your cameras. Their testing seems to match what you're saying about your cameras. I drew wider, solid lines over their dotted lines on the graph because their dotted lines are hard to see when small like this. You can still see part of their dotted lines over on the right side.

DxOMark has three dotted lines on the graph, a green line, a yellow line, and a red line. Above the green line, photos taken at those ISOs will be relatively free of noise. Under the green line noise will be noticeable. Under the yellow line noise will be quite noticeable, but not catastrophic. And under the red line noise will be dramatic.

(Orange line - Canon 1D X Mark II) (Red line Canon 1D Mark III)
(Orange line - Canon 1D X Mark II)   (Red line Can...
(Download)

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Mar 16, 2019 08:26:47   #
OllieFCR
 
Bipod wrote:
Nearly all noise in a RAW image fille is thermal noise from the sensor.
It is relate to two things sensitivity (ISO) and sensor temperature.
Cool the sensor cold enough: no more thermal noise.

In electronics, noise is measured by signal-to-noise ratio.
There is no fundemental reason why higher MP sensors should
have more noise. HOWEVER, there may be an engineering reason:
inadequate cooling. This could cause slightly more noise when
shooting a high MP sensor at high frame rates.

Sensors located inside of cameras are difficult to cool adequately
But so far as I am aware, this has been a problem mainly in
lower-end cameras with "global shutter" sensors, not DSLRs
or high end mirrorless cameras with focal plane shutters.

Phase One makes 100MP backs for medium format film cameras
(real "pro" cameras, like the Miyama and Hasselblad).
These backs have cooling fans or thermoelectric
(Peltier effect) cooling systems.

The worst case for heat would be what al ot of peoople
are running out and buying:

* Mirroless camera with no mechanical shutter
* "Global shutter" sensor
* Fast frame rate
* EVF screen located inside the camera

Think about it: the camera is a small box, probably made
out of plastic. How you gonna cool it?

There are only four ways to move heat:
* Conduction
* Convection
* Radiation
* Active cooling (refrigeration)

None of them work well nside a small plasic box: How well
does plastic conduct heat, compared to say, copper? How's
the air flow throgh that box? If the sensor radiates heat, can
the IR light escape the box? And where you going to put a
refrigeration system?

The bottom of the sensor is covered with contacts--surface-mount
pads that get soldered to the board, so there's not even anywhere
to put a heat sink.

Phase One covers the entire back of the board in a heat ink. That's
not going to fit inside a camera.

Technology isn't about buzzwords--"The Cloud", "nanocrystals", etc---
it's about engineering. You can't get four pounds of crap into a
one-pound box no matter what the marketing department decides
to call it.

Maybe having a tiny, plastic camera wasn't really such a great idea
after all. Maybe that's one reason why Phase One's sensors are so
much superior to the ones the consumer camera companies are stuffing
inside of cameras.

Be careful what you wish for--because Nikon, Canon, Sony, etc. will
give it to you. Phase One, Leica, Hasselblad, Linhof, Sinar , Lockheed
Martin will not--they customers demand top performance, not top styling.
Nearly all noise in a RAW image fille is thermal n... (show quote)


Color noise also arises due to small differences between adjacent pixels. As manufacturing techniques have improved these differences have become less allowing for less noise and this trend will likely continue. Note: there is NOT a threshold where noise suddenly appears, it is always present at any finite temperature, so it is really a question of how much noise you can tolerate in your image. How large you intend to print/look at it then factors in. Thermal noise can only be removed totally at absolute zero, about -460 degrees F, so the difference between the noise at 40 and 90 degrees isn't really that significant although there is a complex mathematical relationship between temperature and noise.

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Mar 16, 2019 09:13:47   #
Notorious T.O.D. Loc: Harrisburg, North Carolina
 
Thanks CO, interesting results. I might argue that the MkII doesn't perform at the yellow line with that low of ISO. But there are multiple factors including the in camera high ISO noise reduction which can be turned on or off. If you need to get the shot in low light at higher shutter speeds it certainly is nice to have the higher ISO capability.

I rarely shoot with the MkIII any more. The crop factor is an advantage sometimes, but there are other disadvantages. That said with reasonable light it can still take excellent images. If posting to social media it would be hard for the normal viewer to tell which body was used. Probably a 10x cost factor between the bodies today. But both are built like tanks.

Todd

CO wrote:
I was curious what DxO testing showed for signal to noise ratio of your cameras. Their testing seems to match what you're saying about your cameras. I drew wider, solid lines over their dotted lines on the graph because their dotted lines are hard to see when small like this. You can still see part of their dotted lines over on the right side.

DxOMark has three dotted lines on the graph, a green line, a yellow line, and a red line. Above the green line, photos taken at those ISOs will be relatively free of noise. Under the green line noise will be noticeable. Under the yellow line noise will be quite noticeable, but not catastrophic. And under the red line noise will be dramatic.
I was curious what DxO testing showed for signal t... (show quote)

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Mar 16, 2019 10:18:23   #
CatMarley Loc: North Carolina
 
Chris T wrote:
One reads a great deal on the Net - vis a vis this problem, but one is left with a certain uncertainty. It would seem - the higher res one attains - the less the threshold, before the onset of noise. In other words, you are better off with a 12MP camera, than you are with a 24MP camera. And, conversely, you're better off with a 24MP camera, than you are with a 50MP camera, as - the higher you go up the ladder, the higher in density are the photo-sites - which, in turn - makes the onset of noise - that much sooner. Please comment, if you would like. And if you have a clear explanation of this phenomenon - please, elaborate, if you've a mind.
One reads a great deal on the Net - vis a vis this... (show quote)


It is sort of like packing a lot of people in a room. if you put 100 people in a small room there will be a lot of noise. Put the same number in a larger room, they will probably irritate each other less, and there will be less noise. Double the size of the room and the number of people you will get a lot of noise, but with the same hundred you started with, put them in the big room = less noise. The noise comes from them talking to each other. Same with electronic noise. Put a lot of electronic elements in a small space - they talk to each other = noise. Fewer elements in the same space, or same number in a larger space, = less noise.

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Mar 16, 2019 10:29:37   #
OllieFCR
 
CatMarley wrote:
It is sort of like packing a lot of people in a room. if you put 100 people in a small room there will be a lot of noise. Put the same number in a larger room, they will probably irritate each other less, and there will be less noise. Double the size of the room and the number of people you will get a lot of noise, but with the same hundred you started with, put them in the big room = less noise. The noise comes from them talking to each other. Same with electronic noise. Put a lot of electronic elements in a small space - they talk to each other = noise. Fewer elements in the same space, or same number in a larger space, = less noise.
It is sort of like packing a lot of people in a ro... (show quote)


Not a great analogy. Each pixel is unconcerned with how many are near it. The signal to noise ratio depends on a number of factors. One is the number of actual photons that are collected by the sensor. The more photons the less noise. Hence, holding everything else constant, a larger sensor will have a better signal to noise ratio since it would collect more photons. As most will have noticed, the dark areas of a photo will have more noise than the lighter areas as well for the same reason.

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