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CROP SENSOR - I don't get it
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Feb 17, 2019 15:43:30   #
cjc2 Loc: Hellertown PA
 
The hopper wrote:
I have a Canon 7D which has an APS-C camera sensor and gives a crop factor of 1.6. Some literature I read says that as a consequence, a standard lens will provide a perceived zoom. So for example, if I have a 100mm lens, the camera sensor will provide the equivalent to a 160mm lens (100x1.6 = 160 mm). Other literature just says that it just provides a reduced image from that which a full sensor would provide. In other words a reduced image.

I can't see how a standard lens will provide a perceived zoom. I think it will just in essence crop the picture that would be provided by a standard lens. A lens will just do what it is designed to do and cannot zoom beyond its normal range ... or have I got it wrong?

In short - help!!!
I have a Canon 7D which has an APS-C camera sensor... (show quote)


As I understand your train-of-thought, you are absolutely correct. There is no optical difference between a given lens on a Crop vs Full sensor camera. There is a difference in angle-of-view as the crop frame does not use the entire image due to its smaller size. My personal explanation is to take an 8 x 10 printed full frame from a full frame camera and cut (crop) a bit off each side as well as the top and bottom. Best of luck.

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Feb 17, 2019 15:52:49   #
Vincejr Loc: Northern Kentucky
 
Not really

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Feb 17, 2019 15:55:28   #
Longshadow Loc: Audubon, PA, United States
 
cjc2 wrote:
As I understand your train-of-thought, you are absolutely correct. There is no optical difference between a given lens on a Crop vs Full sensor camera. There is a difference in angle-of-view as the crop frame does not use the entire image due to its smaller size. My personal explanation is to take an 8 x 10 printed full frame from a full frame camera and cut (crop) a bit off each side as well as the top and bottom. Best of luck.

And then stretch what's left to an 8x10.

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Feb 17, 2019 15:56:34   #
BebuLamar
 
Jimbo1947 wrote:
It's called a crop sensor because that is exactly what it does. It takes a central crop of the full frame sensor image. This gives a perceived telephoto extension. A 100 mm lens on your camera will provide the same image as a 160mm lens on a full frame camera.


But to do that you must use full frame lenses. If you use lenses designed for the format then there is no cropping. Of course the results are the same.

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Feb 17, 2019 15:56:49   #
PHRubin Loc: Nashville TN USA
 
orrie smith wrote:
In my opinion, you are over thinking this. You are correct on all counts. A cropped sensor does in camera what you might do in post processing, cropping the photo to a 1.6 value. ...


True, except that the APS-C camera uses ALL the available pixels in doing the "crop". So a 20 MP APS-C camera not only has a narrower field of view as if using a lens of 1.6 time the focal length as a 20 MP FF camera, it also has much more detail. The result of actually cropping the FF image by 1.6 results in a pixel count of 20 MP/1.6² = 7.8 MP!

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Feb 17, 2019 16:07:25   #
Vincejr Loc: Northern Kentucky
 
No you don’t get it. A so called crop sensor camera is in fact. Like comparing a 35mm to a medium format camera, and each would have its own normal lens and so the same picture taken in the same place would be almost identical , but one would have more detail. This crop sensor idea that got started with the new digital cameras confuses many people.

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Feb 17, 2019 16:14:06   #
Longshadow Loc: Audubon, PA, United States
 
Vincejr wrote:
No you don’t get it. A so called crop sensor camera is in fact. Like comparing a 35mm to a medium format camera, and each would have its own normal lens and so the same picture taken in the same place would be almost identical , but one would have more detail. This crop sensor idea that got started with the new digital cameras confuses many people.

Basically because the cameras look the same on the outside and use the same lenses.
Not like comparing a 35mm and a 2-1/4 camera.

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Feb 17, 2019 16:19:40   #
AndyH Loc: Massachusetts and New Hampshire
 
amfoto1 wrote:
That's not entirely true.

We actually did a FF versus APS-C test some years ago... comparing images from an 18MP APS-C to similarly cropped images from a 21MP full frame. We used the same lens from the same distance to shoot the same subject, then cropped the full frame image down to the size of the APS-C image. In every case, the APS-C image was very clearly superior... sharper and with more detail. And that was using an APS-C camera known to have an unusually strong anti-alias filter (which rob some fine detail from images). There have been improvements to both types of cameras since then, so I'm sure the results of a similar wouldn't be all that different now.

Plus, adding a teleconverter to a lens always costs some image quality... Exactly how much varies wildly and depends upon the quality of both the lens and the teleconverter. Loss of IQ is greater with stronger teleconverters, too. Not to mention, teleconverters also "cost" light lost to them.... one stop with 1.4X, two stops worth with 2X. This can and does effect autofocus in many cases.

There are advantages and disadvantages to crop cameras such as yours. There are also advantages and disadvantages to full frame.

For example, there are now quite a few to choose among, but there didn't used to be many truly wide lenses for APS-C. That's changed, but most wide angles for APC-S are zooms, such as Canon's own EF-S 10-22mm USM and EF-S 10-18mm IS STM. There simply aren't many primes (i.e., not zooms... single focal length lenses) that are wide angle on crop cameras. There's not the selection that's available for full frame and the full frame lenses are "less extreme", so can be better "corrected". A 10mm wide angle lens for use on an APS-C will have more inherent distortions than a 16mm will on full frame. In other words, a 10mm focal length is more difficult to "correct" than a 16mm lens.

But at the other extreme... with telephotos, an APS-C camera has an advantage. The crop format "leverages" telephoto focal lengths to "be more powerful". For example, for sports and wildlife photography I use a Canon EF 300mm f/4L IS USM lens a lot on my 7D-series cameras. That's an approx. 3 lb., <$1500 lens that uses 77mm filters and is easily handheld for a full day of shooting. In order to have the same speed and "reach" with a full frame camera, I'd need to get out an 8 lb., $9000> 500mm f/4 IS USM lens that has a 130mm diameter front element (so it uses rear drop in filters)... and a sturdy tripod to sit it on since I can only hand hold it for a few minutes. Sure, the full frame camera and big lens would make great images... more "enlargeable" than what I get from my APS-C cameras. But I'd also be less mobile with the FF camera and much larger lens... and I'd have to lay out a whole lot more money.

Full frame sensors might be less crowded than the smaller APS-C. That may make for less heat gain, which is one of the causes of "noise" in digital images. In addition, there may be more space between the individual pixel sites, reducing "cross talk" between them, another cause of "noise". Plus the individual pixel sites on the FF sensor might be larger and have a weaker or no anti-alias filter, making for better light gathering ability and greater detail capture in images.

However, APS-C sensors are the most common type and have improved greatly in their high ISO and image quality capabilities in recent years. Unless you make really large prints (say, bigger than 16x20").... and/or use super high ISOs... you're unlikely to see much difference in finished images. The vast majority of people will see little or no benefit in images quality switching from APS-C to FF. They just think "FF is better" because they evaluate their images at ridiculously high magnifications on their computer monitors... when they look at their images "at 100%" on a computer monitor, with a 24MP camera that's like looking at a five foot wide print from 18 or 20" away! It's absurd because most will never, ever make prints anywhere near that large. With higher resolution cameras, it's even more extreme and unrealistic. Back off to 25% or 33% to do more sensible evaluation of image quality and judge things like sharpness, focus accuracy, the appearance of noise, etc.

Not to mention.... FF cameras and the lenses they require are bigger, heavier and typically a lot more expensive.

Why are FF cameras more expensive? The reason comes down to the basics of the manufacturing process. The typical silicon wafer used to make image sensors can accommodate 80 APS-C size sensors. Or the same wafer can be used to make 20 FF sensors. Plus, there are often flaws on those sensors which cause some of the sensors to fail quality control. If there are 4 flaws on a wafer that cause 4 sensors to fail QC, with APS-C that's a loss of 5%. The same wafer with the same flaws used to make FF sensors might mean a 20% loss instead! It's probably less dramatic, but there are likely other savings among the various other components in the camera, with the smaller format. As a result... a high-end APS-C camera rarely costs more than $1500 to $1800... while a high-end FF typically costs $3000 or more.

There are some other relatively subtle differences. For example, the larger full frame format offers a little bit more control over various Depth of Field effects: Potential for a little stronger background blur AND the ability to use approx. 1 stop smaller apertures for greater DoF. Actually, both these are indirect results of other differences.... Seemingly stronger blur effects from any particular large aperture are because with full frame you either need to use a longer focal length lens or move closer to your subject. And the reason smaller apertures for greater DoF is possible before "diffraction" is a concern is because an image from a full frame camera will be less magnified to make any given size of print. To make an 8x12" from FF is about 8X magnification... the same size print from an APS-C camera requires about 13X magnification.... assuming no cropping in either case.

Full frame cameras also may have a slower continuous shooting rate than APS-C. FF shutter actions are louder in many cases, too. And it's common for FF to have slower flash syncs.

I use both formats... full frame for some purposes (about 10% of my work) and APS-C for others (about 90% of what I shoot).

For most peoples' "real world" uses of their cameras, the images they make with them and how they use those images, a modern APS-C format is usually more than enough.
That's not entirely true. br br We actually did a... (show quote)


This is the best and most comprehensive explanation posted in this extensive discussion. I agree that many who chase the FF standard are buying features that they don't need unless they're professionals or semi-pros. With good glass, there is no reason that you can't produce prints up to 16x20, and maybe even larger, of very good quality. If you're not shooting in low light conditions, I think that today's bodies and PP software have reduced high ISO noise to a very acceptable level. And while film "grain" is more attractive than digital noise, does anyone remember what Ektachrome at 800 or Tri-X pushed to 1600 really looked like?

Bebu, Linda, and Mikey have also summed things up well. If we old timers were not used to "thinking" in full frame 35 mm film terms, there would be no need to talk about "equivalents". Since the digital revolution, most DSLRs of either format have come with zoom kit lenses as standard, so the idea of a "normal" prime has become foreign to those who grew up on these formats and with these cameras.

Andy

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Feb 17, 2019 16:24:30   #
AndyH Loc: Massachusetts and New Hampshire
 
olemikey wrote:
Folks always stick that multiplication thing back into the mix (I blame the camera mfg's for that, early explanations made it sound like magnification, it is not), it is perception, perceived view, viewing the same shot .


Exactly. They knew they couldn't sell FF cameras at a profit to the average amateur in the early years, and the trope of "just like a 450mm" became a selling feature. However, I don't remember any of them pushing the idea that an 18mm wide angle was "just like a 35mm".

Andy

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Feb 17, 2019 16:44:31   #
xt2 Loc: British Columbia, Canada
 
Good question! Here is a graphic that makes the comparisons fairly simple and easily understood. As you can see all but the medium full frame format examples are actually "full frame." All others just a tiny slice of the pie, including the DSLRs, etc.

Cheers!





The hopper wrote:
I have a Canon 7D which has an APS-C camera sensor and gives a crop factor of 1.6. Some literature I read says that as a consequence, a standard lens will provide a perceived zoom. So for example, if I have a 100mm lens, the camera sensor will provide the equivalent to a 160mm lens (100x1.6 = 160 mm). Other literature just says that it just provides a reduced image from that which a full sensor would provide. In other words a reduced image.

I can't see how a standard lens will provide a perceived zoom. I think it will just in essence crop the picture that would be provided by a standard lens. A lens will just do what it is designed to do and cannot zoom beyond its normal range ... or have I got it wrong?

In short - help!!!
I have a Canon 7D which has an APS-C camera sensor... (show quote)



Reply
Feb 17, 2019 18:06:26   #
User ID
 
amfoto1 wrote:
That's not entirely true.

We actually did a FF versus APS-C test some years ago... comparing images from an 18MP APS-C to similarly cropped images from a 21MP full frame. We used the same lens from the same distance to shoot the same subject, then cropped the full frame image down to the size of the APS-C image. In every case, the APS-C image was very clearly superior... sharper and with more detail. And that was using an APS-C camera known to have an unusually strong anti-alias filter (which rob some fine detail from images). There have been improvements to both types of cameras since then, so I'm sure the results of a similar wouldn't be all that different now.

Plus, adding a teleconverter to a lens always costs some image quality... Exactly how much varies wildly and depends upon the quality of both the lens and the teleconverter. Loss of IQ is greater with stronger teleconverters, too. Not to mention, teleconverters also "cost" light lost to them.... one stop with 1.4X, two stops worth with 2X. This can and does effect autofocus in many cases.

There are advantages and disadvantages to crop cameras such as yours. There are also advantages and disadvantages to full frame.

For example, there are now quite a few to choose among, but there didn't used to be many truly wide lenses for APS-C. That's changed, but most wide angles for APC-S are zooms, such as Canon's own EF-S 10-22mm USM and EF-S 10-18mm IS STM. There simply aren't many primes (i.e., not zooms... single focal length lenses) that are wide angle on crop cameras. There's not the selection that's available for full frame and the full frame lenses are "less extreme", so can be better "corrected". A 10mm wide angle lens for use on an APS-C will have more inherent distortions than a 16mm will on full frame. In other words, a 10mm focal length is more difficult to "correct" than a 16mm lens.

But at the other extreme... with telephotos, an APS-C camera has an advantage. The crop format "leverages" telephoto focal lengths to "be more powerful". For example, for sports and wildlife photography I use a Canon EF 300mm f/4L IS USM lens a lot on my 7D-series cameras. That's an approx. 3 lb., <$1500 lens that uses 77mm filters and is easily handheld for a full day of shooting. In order to have the same speed and "reach" with a full frame camera, I'd need to get out an 8 lb., $9000> 500mm f/4 IS USM lens that has a 130mm diameter front element (so it uses rear drop in filters)... and a sturdy tripod to sit it on since I can only hand hold it for a few minutes. Sure, the full frame camera and big lens would make great images... more "enlargeable" than what I get from my APS-C cameras. But I'd also be less mobile with the FF camera and much larger lens... and I'd have to lay out a whole lot more money.

Full frame sensors might be less crowded than the smaller APS-C. That may make for less heat gain, which is one of the causes of "noise" in digital images. In addition, there may be more space between the individual pixel sites, reducing "cross talk" between them, another cause of "noise". Plus the individual pixel sites on the FF sensor might be larger and have a weaker or no anti-alias filter, making for better light gathering ability and greater detail capture in images.

However, APS-C sensors are the most common type and have improved greatly in their high ISO and image quality capabilities in recent years. Unless you make really large prints (say, bigger than 16x20").... and/or use super high ISOs... you're unlikely to see much difference in finished images. The vast majority of people will see little or no benefit in images quality switching from APS-C to FF. They just think "FF is better" because they evaluate their images at ridiculously high magnifications on their computer monitors... when they look at their images "at 100%" on a computer monitor, with a 24MP camera that's like looking at a five foot wide print from 18 or 20" away! It's absurd because most will never, ever make prints anywhere near that large. With higher resolution cameras, it's even more extreme and unrealistic. Back off to 25% or 33% to do more sensible evaluation of image quality and judge things like sharpness, focus accuracy, the appearance of noise, etc.

Not to mention.... FF cameras and the lenses they require are bigger, heavier and typically a lot more expensive.

Why are FF cameras more expensive? The reason comes down to the basics of the manufacturing process. The typical silicon wafer used to make image sensors can accommodate 80 APS-C size sensors. Or the same wafer can be used to make 20 FF sensors. Plus, there are often flaws on those sensors which cause some of the sensors to fail quality control. If there are 4 flaws on a wafer that cause 4 sensors to fail QC, with APS-C that's a loss of 5%. The same wafer with the same flaws used to make FF sensors might mean a 20% loss instead! It's probably less dramatic, but there are likely other savings among the various other components in the camera, with the smaller format. As a result... a high-end APS-C camera rarely costs more than $1500 to $1800... while a high-end FF typically costs $3000 or more.

There are some other relatively subtle differences. For example, the larger full frame format offers a little bit more control over various Depth of Field effects: Potential for a little stronger background blur AND the ability to use approx. 1 stop smaller apertures for greater DoF. Actually, both these are indirect results of other differences.... Seemingly stronger blur effects from any particular large aperture are because with full frame you either need to use a longer focal length lens or move closer to your subject. And the reason smaller apertures for greater DoF is possible before "diffraction" is a concern is because an image from a full frame camera will be less magnified to make any given size of print. To make an 8x12" from FF is about 8X magnification... the same size print from an APS-C camera requires about 13X magnification.... assuming no cropping in either case.

Full frame cameras also may have a slower continuous shooting rate than APS-C. FF shutter actions are louder in many cases, too. And it's common for FF to have slower flash syncs.

I use both formats... full frame for some purposes (about 10% of my work) and APS-C for others (about 90% of what I shoot).

For most peoples' "real world" uses of their cameras, the images they make with them and how they use those images, a modern APS-C format is usually more than enough.
That's not entirely true. br br We actually did a... (show quote)


Amfoto, are you descended from Leo Tolstoy
or maybe he was your literature professor ?

A little shorter than "War and Peace" there,
but just a little bit :-)

Yes, I admit, I myself do some long posts,
but hey, my hat is off to you !

.

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Feb 17, 2019 18:44:27   #
AndyH Loc: Massachusetts and New Hampshire
 
User ID wrote:
Amfoto, are you descended from Leo Tolstoy
or maybe he was your literature professor ?

A little shorter than "War and Peace" there,
but just a little bit :-)

Yes, I admit, I myself do some long posts,
but hey, my hat is off to you !

.


Part of the problem in today's world is that we want bumper sticker answers to complex questions. Not so easy...

I'm pretty sure you'll agree with me on that.

Andy

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Feb 17, 2019 19:29:14   #
olemikey Loc: 6 mile creek, Spacecoast Florida
 
AndyH wrote:
Exactly. They knew they couldn't sell FF cameras at a profit to the average amateur in the early years, and the trope of "just like a 450mm" became a selling feature. However, I don't remember any of them pushing the idea that an 18mm wide angle was "just like a 35mm".

Andy


That wide end equiv. was mentioned under breath, those rat baggers!!!

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Feb 17, 2019 20:03:09   #
AndyH Loc: Massachusetts and New Hampshire
 
olemikey wrote:
That wide end equiv. was mentioned under breath, those rat baggers!!!


HA! You got that right!

Still selling us stuff at the expense of "truth in advertising", eh?

Andy

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Feb 17, 2019 20:57:10   #
DeanS Loc: Capital City area of North Carolina
 
In its simplest terms, a 100mm lens (EF lens) on a Canon crop sensor camera, acts like a 160mm lens on a Canon full frame camera. Keep in mind, Canon EF-S lens will not mount to a Canon FF body. Imo, far too much is made about this aspect of digital cameras.

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