Bipod

So it's a rumor: heard from unnamed person who got it from an unknown source.

Well, you haven't said anything about what would maximize Sony's earnings.
That might be relevant to their decision

Uh, if someone piles manure higher than anyone has before, does that make him an "innovator"?
I thought you had to invent something or improve something.

Sony is a consumer products company. Audiophiles are not its primary market.
ony was always low-end audio equipment--sold though consumer electronic stores
like Circuit City and Best Buy.

In the hi-fi, area, Edison invented the phonograph, Lee De Forrest invented the triode tube,
RCA (specifically, Edwin Howard Armstrong) invented FM radio, and Bell Labs invented
the transistor. That's real innovation.

But Philips and Sony did jointly develop and bring to market the Compact Disk in 1982.
That was real innovation (and a giant disappointment to hi-fi fans at first, thanks to limitations
of the early D-to-A chips). CDs were dispised by audiophiles until 24-bit DAC chips
became available.

Innovation isn't just about making something different--it's about making it better.

It all depends what VALUE you put on sound quality....and construction quality.

Sony CD changers and DVD changers are not known for thieir long service life--too many
cheap plastic gears and steel-on-steel load-bearing surfaces.

I don't know where you get the idea that it's not low-end!
Have you ever looked at a McIntosh Amplifier?

Of course, the top-grossing restaurant in the world in McDonald's. But the Golden Arches
doesn't have any Michelin stars (and never will).

Timex outsells Rolex. And Coca-Colar sure outsells Domaine de la Romanée-Conti --
and is a heck of lot more afforadble. But how good a "value" is carbonated sugar water,
really? Even jug wine is more complex.

Your value system is consumerism, not quality. Stop reading so much advertising
and opinon-based reviews. Instead, open up one of your Sony boxes and look at the
construction.

Well that settles it!
[quote]
Yamaha - would be a close second, and, perhaps, Onkyo. But Denon / Marantz -
appeal to a niche market, and are priced, accordingly. Come to think of it, I think
it was a Yamaha - which was the fifth in that 5-way comparison of affordable
AV Receivers. It did not do as well as the others mentioned. Perhaps, as the output
on Yamahas - is designed to be delivered to 6ohm drivers, whereas all others are
designed to be delivered to 8ohm drivers. So, a fair comparison of specs - makes
fhat difference an impossible feat.
[quote]
No audiophile buys an AV Receiver -- that's a portmanteau "do eveything" product
aimed at consumers. It only takes one bad section (say a noisy pre-amp) to ruin it.

If you buy component systems, then you can replace or upgrade any component you
don't like. If it's all integrated, you're stuck with it.

Also, the isolation between separate chassis is usually better than when several
sections are combined in one box. It is also much easier to debug the source of
a problem (interference, bad EQ, whatever).

I take it back. Sony would be the Chevrolet division of GM.

McDonald's is a success. WalMart is a success. So what? That doesn't mean it's
any good. It just means it makes money.

The lottery makes money--but it''s still a losing proposition for the suckers (I mean,
customers). People don't always know what's in their own best interest.

Before you can say whether something is a good value, you have to know what you
are getting. Sony is expert at reducing manufacturing costs and hiding the
reduction in quality. Start by looking up the stereo FM demodulator IC on your
receiver, and see who else is using it.

If names like Sharp, Sansui and Emerson pop up, then check the price of the IC.
Chancers are it's main virtue is that it's CHEAP.

Then look at the power supply, and filtration. Do you get a circuit breaker, or
just a fuse? Or no fuse?

Real stuff matters. "Buzz" -- advertising, puff pieces by "tame" journalists,
manufacturer-sponsored reviews, celebrity endorsements -- doesn't.

Chris T Loc: from England across the pond to New England

Well, now - this is more like it, Bipod … thanks for the reply, and the time you took to do it, too ….

Now, then - where do I start? … This is my dilemma … when it was written, a week, ago - I already had stashed a few comebacks, predicting this sort of answer - but, that's all vanished, now - sad to say.

And, because it's so long - I can't start at the top and work down. Unless I bring up a 2nd copy. Hold on!

Here we go ...

On the a77 Mk. III - the chap who addressed me on my Sony post, indicated it's definitely coming sometime in 2019. Beyond that, I cannot state. This is NOT a rumor. This is factual!!!!

Whether Sony wishes to maximize earnings or not - is THEIR concern. I have no shares in Sony - so whatever they do - doesn't affect me ONE IOTA!!!!!

However, I do think they make a good product, even if some of their AV stuff is a little noisy. But, the CD and DVD Changers are recognized as being innovative, effective, and a great asset to ANY Audio System.

Circuit City is HISTORY now. In this neck of the woods - they've been replaced by PC Richards - who even moved into the very same building Circuit City used. I don't think it really matters, do you? When you go into Best Buy (and Circuit City before them) you see Pioneer, Yamaha, Denon, Marantz, Onkyo, Sony - all lined up together. Does that mean - by your definition - they are ALL low-class? ... I don't think so.

That comparison of the Yamaha, Denon, Marantz, Onkyo and Sony 7.1 AV Receivers - in which Sony came out on top - was decided - to some extent - ON the better construction of the Sony unit - compared to the other four. The Reviewer also stated he preferred the sleek look of the Sony, as well as its solid feel!

Yes, Sony DID develop the Compact Disc - supposedly, in conjunction with Philips. However, Philips is in one of those Scandinavian countries - or, maybe it's Holland, is it? ... whilst Sony is in Japan. So, I hardly think the two countries worked TOGETHER - at ANY time. More likely, they both came up with the idea at the same time, and rather than haggle about it - they decided to apply for the patent - together! ... But, I guess we'll never know the answer to THAT one, will we, Bipod?

As a matter of fact - I HAVE looked at SEVERAL Macintoshes - and, if any US Audio Manufacturer could be considered preeminent - it would be Macintosh. However, I could never afford such delights. Yamaha - is about my speed for Audio Output Devices. I like the way they look, and like the way they perform. But, I do also have a Sony or two - but I don't use them quite as often as the Yamahas - which are on both D/S (virtually 24-7) and U/S - about 16 hrs, per day. But, for source devices - Sony is my preference - with some ten or so components with the Sony name on them - both up and down combined. These include CD Changers, DVD Changers, Mini-Disc Recorder, Combo Deck, and several TVs, too. And, so far - not a single component (other than a 24" flat tube TV ) has broken down. But, perhaps I've been lucky. Also, I have a Yamaha DVD-A Changer and several Panasonic changers, here and there, thru-out the house. There's also Sony R-R recorders both up and down, and a Sony Cassette Recorder Deck U/S as well.

So, do I believe in Sony? … Why, yes - most certainly. I do prefer Yamaha sound, though - which I consider cleaner than Sony. Although, in the Power category - my Sony 6.1 can run rings around any Yamaha I have. Also, their inputs are DESIGNED for their output components - so when you combine Sony devices - you can actually HEAR infinitesimal improvement in the Sound output quality. That may sound nutty to you, Bipod - but I swear it's true. Sony knows what they're doing - and like no OTHER audio equipment manufacturer, too. And, Sony may not have INVENTED the 400-Disc Changer, but I don't see anyone ELSE making them - do you, Bipod? … Ditto for that CD Dubbing Recorder / Stacker.

Bipod - individual components are a smart idea IF you ARE into upgrading components every Friday. But, if you're not, and are selective about choosing a good A/V Receiver - it can last you decades!!! … The Yamaha I have on down here right now, I picked up second-hand in a TV Repair Place for $200. It has lasted me, now - for just about 20 years!!! It's on - just about - around the clock. Never had a moment's trouble with it. I don't NEED to upgrade! … I am perfectly happy with my lot. I had separates before - some 45 years ago. As a matter of fact - I still have them - right behind me as I write this. The tuner's shot. One of the amps has burnt out, and the rest sound like crap! … I actually PREFER combinations, now.

Honestly, Bipod - you are so quick to jump on names, and call them all cheap!!! … I have an Optonica Dual Cassette Deck (made by Sharp) which has been repaired a couple of times now, and each time it is - the audio technicians have mentioned to me that deck is priceless - and has the best sound they've EVER heard from a cassette deck, including those made by Nakimichi. … Now, then - Sansui - was, for the longest time - one of the Japanese Audio Companies - making the very most advanced audio components in the world. I still have their 4 channel audio synthesizer - which is the best of its type - ever made!!!!

You know what, Bipod - I think YOU are the one who's been brainwashed. Someone told you a bunch of crap - and you believed it, and are now hoisting these evil thoughts on an unsuspecting world!!!!!

Give it up, willya?

Bipod

I agree with you on Yamaha. While it makes a lot of consumer products, it is also a highly-
regarded musical instrument manufacturer: guitars, drum sets, brass, even grand pianos!
This puts it in an entirely different category than, say, Sony or Casio, which only make
electronic insturments (and those primarily aimed at consumers).

Yamaha has had quality problems in the past: for example, when it started importing its
acoustic pianos to the American SouthWest. In low-humidity environments like Arizona
they dried out and cracked. To Yamaha's eternal credit, it replaced all these pianos and
altered it's construction for pianos built for export to the US.

Rolland and Korg -- while they only make electronic instruments -- are also a huge step up
from Sony. They make a lot of pro gear intended for hard use on stage.

Everything I said about Sony construction and product lifespan is true--but
not untypical of consumer electronics. Sony materials and workmanship are
comperable with other large consumer electronics companies--maybe not quite as
good as Panasonic.

You can't build something out of Mil Spec parts and sell it for $99.99. So the most
one can ask for in consumer electronics is good quality-control in manufacturing and
suffient "burn in" testing. That way you won't get sold a "lemon": it will still die in a
year or two, but not on the day you bring it home from thes store. Sony seems to be about
average in "initial quality" (not the same thing as material quality or design reliability).

Matsushita Electric --founded in 1918 and today remaned after one of its brands:
Panasonic -- has always had a reputation for the best quality control of the big
Japanese consumer electronics manufactures.

Here's a tip: any AC-powered electronic equipment with big electrolytic "can"
capacitors in it's power supply is worth considering. That's an expensive part,
and it indicates that the designer was serious about having clean power (an
absolute must for digital electronics).

Anything powered by a "wall wort" (exept as a way to recharge the battery) is
consumer crap--filtration is poor, and most AC adapters aren't even voltage regulated.
It's just a cheap way to meet UL and CE requirements--that's all. Most such
devices rely entirely on a voltage regulator chip on the main board, which can
only dissipate so much power. The first voltage spike that comes along is likely
to wipe out the whole board. If you want electronics to last and be trouble free,
then you need a "belt and suspenders" approach -- so it can take a few hits
and keep on working.

Guitar effects pedals are an exception: manufacturers expect you to throw away
the wall wart and buy a isolated, regulated supply. Most will also run on
batteries--always the cleanest power, but apt to go dead at the worst possible
moment. Pedals are a mess because the high-impedance, unbalanced interface
is archaic and there are no published standards for power or even signal impedance.
Worse, nearly all electric guitars have passive elctronics ,so changing the setting
of the volume or tone knobs changes the output impedance.

Engineers know how to build reliable electronics: but it's requires expensive parts,
heavy-duty connnectors, extra shielding, etc. But most consumers care only about
price and features, not MTBF. When it stops working, they'll just throw it away
and buy another. I think I think I went through three Sony CD changes before I
got wise and looked inside.

Consumer priorities determine the characteristics of consumer products. When consumers
start asking "What's the MTBF?" then consumer products will start lasting.

So your unnamed source was very emphatic. Well then, then that makes it a fact.
An emphatic chap is as good as a statement by Sony's CEO in a filing with the SEC!

Chris T Loc: from England across the pond to New England

Yup!!! … I suspect he was involved with Sony, in some way. Good to know a Model III a77 is coming.

You sound like you have a lot of experience w/ musical instruments, Bipod. I, too - have a Yamaha keyboard - forgot about that. It has 99 Separate Voices. Really neat! … Plus, a built-in synthesizer!!!

You forgot to mention - not only do Yamaha make superb musical instruments and audio equipment - they also make MOTORBIKES!!! … And, some - swear by them. Every bit as good as BMW - they say. And - half the price, to boot! …

Sony 5-disc changers are built on a different quality level than the big 400-Disc Changers, though. I've seen a lot of those thrown away, in dumpsters. Even brought one or two home, and tried to fix them. But, eventually - got my own dumpster, and threw them out again. I have several 5-disc DVD changers - two upstairs - and one down here. Also, upstairs - is a 5-disc SACD changer made by Sony - who instituted that format … not only did they invent the CD (w/ Philips) but they invented the SACD!!! Of course, it went out, along with the DVD-A disc, too … they both got a lotta attention when they first came out, of course - especially as they both delivered complete surround sound, instead of providing a simulation - as most music on CDs does now. The DVD-A format, espoused by both Yamaha and Panasonic - gave you the extra bonus of providing pictures of the band on your monitor as the music played. But, they were so much more expensive than SACDs - which weren't a lot more expensive than regular CDs - it never really caught on. But, you can still find them, if you hunt around. Most of David Bowie's albums were available in DVD-A. SACDs never had that feature, of course - but they do require SACD players, in order to get the best out of them. The 400-Disc Sony DVD changer I have, down here, also plays them. The regular Sony 400-disc CD unit, does NOT, however. So, I have to watch it, when I shuffle around my CDs from one changer to another. Still - keeps me on my toes!!! …

Bipod

I only have an old low end (PSR) Yamaha keyboard, but most of the samples used for the voices
(even percussion!) are surprisingly good. And the MIDI interface works well.

I wrote a MIDI percussion sequencer specificially for demonstrating Cuban and Brazilian
patterns, and it sounds good with the Yamaha voices. Of course, I had to pick substitutes for
instruments that aren't part of the General MIDI 1 spec Interestingly, the percussion channel
support for Cuban percussion is pretty good: guiro, bongos, conga, etc. Brazilian percussion
is scarce---but surprisingly it has a high and low agobo bell, high and low samba whistle, and
a mute and open cuica (the cuica has variable pitch, so really it doesn't belong in the percussion set).
But no Brazilian or African drums.

I didn't want to use the Rolland extensions because I wanted it to work with any device that
supports GM 1. MIDI exists becuase keyboard manufactuers (including Yamaha and Rolland)
got together to write a spec in 1983 -- and in 1985 founded of the MIDI Manufacturer's Association
to oversee compliance and maintain the standard. MIDI 1.0 was done so well thought-out that there
has never been a need for a MIDI 2.0. The goal was to keep it simple, so MIDI describes key
presses and releases, not "notes". It's entirely physical -- stuff you can see on an oscilloscope,
not music notation--which means it can be made precise and unambiguous, and can be tested.

Wouldn't it be nice if the camera industry understood the value of standardization, inter-operability
and keeping designs simple?

Imagine if Nikon and Canon had jointly announced a common lens mount, instead of Z-mount and
ES-M-mount --- they'd be unstoppable. The L-mount alliance has the right idea -- but only includes
one major camera manufacturer -- Panasonic -- which doesn't have a history of making high-end
cameras. Leica does, but its sales are tiny. And Sigma is a lens manufactuer. Had Olympus come
on-board it would be a lot more viable.

Also, APS-C format version (TL) cameras far outsell FF cameras (SL). Panasonic has yet to produce
an iconic, flasship FF camera. Without one, it will be hard to compete with Canon, Nikon and yes,
Sony. Sony inherited high quality cameras from Konica Minolta (with roots going back ever further
than Eastman Kodak). But it seems to be going the technology hype and features route--consumerism.

Sony's main innovation in its camears was SLT (fixed partially-transmissive mirror), which seems to
be going away (juding by new model releases). It was simpler than a DSLR with less noise and camera
shake, but a dimmer viewfinder. I don't own one, so I can't speak from personal experience. But at
least it was something new, not rehash of proven Konica Minolta designs.

EVFs are new -- but really amount to moving the screen on a P&S inside the camera.
It's hard to get too excited about that. Yes, it works in bright sunlight, but it still runs
the battery down. If you turn off that screen, you've got no viewfinder.

I often use cameras miles from my car and from the nearest AC outlet, so I really appreciate
battery life. So far, I haven't seen anything better than a mechanical folder with an OVF
for this use. Frankly, I'd rather have a "sports finder" (wire sight) than a screen or EVF--
at least it won't run the battery down.

The smart phone is the epitome of consumer self-indulgence: a tech-toy for couch potatoes.
My ideal camera is more like a military compass or : it works even in the harshest conditions,
without quickly running down it's battery and needing a charge. Even the military handheld
radios are more robust and will survive being dunked or dropped.

Chris T Loc: from England across the pond to New England

I have a Blackberry-style phone (Nokia) that I bought from Amazon for $50 used - just so I could see what having one would be like. I've never made a call with it, though. I have no carrier, and it has no SIM, either. So, I used to charge it up all the time - so I had access to all the other functions - clock, calendar, datebook, games, etc., etc. But, got tired of it and now I don't even charge it up anymore. Used to have to do it about every three days, so I know what you mean. Camera battery charges - last a week or two … BIG difference. The Sony alpha a77 Mk. III I'm waiting for is an SLT - thought you knew, Bipod. Also have the a77 and the a77 II, and the entry-level model - the a58. They are all SLTs - w/ EVFs. And, yes - the batteries DO run down quicker, because of the EVFs. I got some of those Velcro pouches - which thread on to the camera straps. This way, I'll never get caught out in the wilds, again - when my battery runs down, because of the EVF. Typically, I leave my camera bag in the car, and just take the camera. All the other DSLRs have spare batteries in the pockets of their bags. Each bag is specific for that particular camera - so I don't mix them up - two dozen in all. (12 DSLRs, 12 bridges.) Sigma - you know, Bipod - DOES make cameras - check their site. And, they are planning to bring out some FF models, too - to match Panasonic's offerings of the S1 and S1 R - BOTH FF MILCs, using the Leica thread specified in the L Alliance. So, when Sigma's new designs are out there - there will BE three different lines of FF cameras - using exactly the same mount - the Panasonic S1, and S1 R … the Leica ones, AND the new Sigma ones.