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Why is exposure so confusing?
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Jan 21, 2019 22:48:24   #
tdekany Loc: Oregon
 
Bipod wrote:
It time someone talked about WHY exposure is so confusing.

It's because of the way manufacture's label camera settings. They don't apply base 2 logarithms
consistently.

There are two reasonable rules:
1. Each detent on a control (aperture, shutter, ISO, exposure compenstation) must be EXACTLY
twice (or half) the exposure of the previous detent; and
2 Each should be labeled in integers: ... -3, -2, -1, 0, 1, 2, 3....

If you do this consistantly, you get the Additive Photographic Exposure System (APEX)
which was standardized way back in 1960 (ASA standard ASA PH2.5-1960) and was used
in industry and by the military (where confusion is not OK).

EC knobs (and menus) generally follow both rules: No compensation is labeled "0". Increasing
exposure by one stop is labled "1". Decreasing exposure by one stop is labeled "-1". Anyone
confused by this? Pretty simple, right?

F-numbers follow Rule 1, but not Rule 2. The sequence 1, 1.4, 2, 2.8, 4, 5.6, etc. is a lot more
complicated than 1,2,3,4,5... And you don't need to know the actual f-stop ratio unless you are
building a camera.

Shutter speeds are a mess. They follow neither rule. This sequence makes sense:
1, 2, 4, 8, 16, 32, 64, 128, 256, 512, .... This one doesn't: 1, 2, 4, 8, 15, 30, 60, 125, 250, 500, .....
What's the rule for latter sequence, pray tell?

ISO speeds are given in two different sysems: ASA and DIN. Both follow Rule 1, but only DIN
follows Rule 2. The ISO "standard" is to use BOTH! (Sure sign of a gutless committee trying to
please everybody.) The ASA number isn't even logarithmic. And ASA 100 is DIN 21 -- why 21?
"Historical reasons".

Finally, Exposure values follow Rule 1 but not Rule 2 -- again for "historical reasons".
"Historical reasons" is a polite way of saying S.N.A.F.U.

Exposure is confusing because of the silly, stupid, inconsitent way in which cameras controls
are labeled.

Here's the "Sunny 16" rule in the traditional Tower of Babel system:

At approx. EV 15 and f/16, use shutter speed 1/ASA speed
for example:
At approx. EV 15 and f/16 and ASA 100, use 1/100th sec

(which of course, isn't even a detent on the shutter dial-it only has 125.)

Here the general rule in APEX:

TimeValue + ApertureValue = SensitvityValue + Brightness
E.g., at approx. EV 15:
5 + 8 = 5 + 8

Does this math confuse anybody? Dang simple, if you ask me.
So by subtracting SensitivityValue from both sides:

Brightness = TimeValue + ApertureValue - SensitivtyValue
8 = 5 + 8 - 5

As usual, people are willing to update their hardware and software (= buy stuff) but not their thinking.
Picture a cave man holding a Nikon. "Og like take photos. But Og confused by exposure." No wonder!


For reference, here's the basic system, as standardized in 1960.

APEX SYSTEM (per ASA PH2.5-1960)

Note: this may differ from EXIF Version 2.2.

APERTURE

f-number APEX
1 0
1.4 1
2 2
2.8 3
4 4
5.6 5
8 6
11 7
16 8
22 9
etc.

SHUTTER SPEED

The original APEX standard kept the irregular shutter times: 1, 1/2, 1/4,1/8, 1/15, 1/30, 1/60, 1/125....

In fact, some cameras are already calibrated to 1/16, 1/32, 1/64... Shutters are rarely accurate enough
to tell the difference except at 1/15 <> 1/16.

Nominal Sec. APEX
1 1 0
2 1/2 1
15 1/15 2
30 1/30 3
60 1/60 4
125 1/125 5
250 1/250 6
500 1/500 7
1000 1/1000 8
etc.

FILM/SENSOR SPEED


ASA DIN APEX
100 21 5
200 22 6
400 23 7
800 24 8
1600 25 9
etc.


BRIGHTNESS

Again, the original standard kept the irregular shutter speeds, so it had to have
irregular brightnesses as well.


APEX FOOT LAMBERTS
1 2
2 4
3 8
4 15
5 30
6 60
7 125
8 250
9 500
10 1000
etc.
It time someone talked about WHY exposure is so co... (show quote)


It’s not confusing at all. Especially when you use a mirrorless camera.

Reply
Jan 21, 2019 23:45:47   #
larryepage Loc: North Texas area
 
Bipod wrote:
So why do the light measurement mess and the exposure mess exist?

Because the scientific and engineering disciplines most related to measuring light and to
photographic exposure are photometry and sensiometry, respectively.

And photometrists and sensiometrists are few and far between (the latter especially so since
the switch to digital).

Moreover, neither discipline has a powerful professional organziation, such as the Instittue of
Electrical and Electronic Engineers (IEEE) or the Society of Automative Enegineers (SAE).
If the IEEE or SAE cared about it, it would have been fixed long ago.

Lastly, there is the inherent inertia of culture. Once people learn something one way--no matter
how messy--they don't want to change. So eventually digital camera global shipments decline
by over 70% since 2011.... and still no change in the photographic dogma.

Smart phones are a lot simpler: only one or two f/stops.
So why do the light measurement mess and the expos... (show quote)

In my experience, it is a mess for primarily two reasons:
1. We make it too complicated when teaching it. (Makes me wonder if we really understand it.)
2. We have no patience. Most of us on this forum have been at this for 30 years or more. But we expect newcomers to get it on the first try.

f/ stop (note the forward slash) is a term with a very specific meaning. For instance, f/5.6 is actually a number representing the diameter of the controlling aperture of the lens as represented by the focal length of that lens divided by an exposure ratio...for instance for a 100mm lens, f/11 represents an aperture diameter of 100mm/11=9.09mm.

f/22 for that same lens represents an aperture diameter of 100mm/22=4.045mm.

Now it turns out that the area of that 9.09mm aperture is exactly 4 times the area of the area of the 4.045mm aperture. You can do the arithmetic. Area of a circle is pi X r X r.

So the larger opening lets in 4 times the amount of light. 2 stops = 4 times the light, 1 stop = 2 times the light. There is no mystery. The arithmetic is not even complicated. We need to stop making it so.

Similarly, a shutter open time that is twice as long lets in twice as much light. Half as long lets in half as much light. Period. Nothing more than that. We need to stop making it so complicated.

It's just not.

Period.

Reply
Jan 21, 2019 23:57:44   #
SS319
 
Bipod wrote:

There are two reasonable rules:
1. Each detent on a control (aperture, shutter, ISO, exposure compenstation) must be EXACTLY
twice (or half) the exposure of the previous detent; and

[/code]


My camera progresses in 1/3 stops. Your system doesn't even allow half stops.

If we are going to change the system, why not go to natural logarithms, instead of base 2.

Once we choose to change a system, the first thing we have to do is throw out the old rules; your system is not better or worse, just different. I personally believe you are throwing out a lot of useful photographic information for the sake of simplification.

For example: can you handhold a camera with a 350mm lens at a shutter speed of 5? - without looking at the tables above?

Reply
 
 
Jan 22, 2019 00:48:38   #
sloscheider Loc: Minnesota
 
Bipod wrote:
True enough. Just imagine the cost of everyone in the USA -- mechanics, auto shops wholesalers and
retail stores -- having to keep two sets of every type of wrench (spanner) they use or sell.

It's even worse when you consider photometry. The following units of measure are used in the USA:

Luminance stibs (CGS system), apostibs, lamberts, foot-lambert, lumens per steridion-square meter,
candelas per square foot, candela per-square meter (metric, SI)

Illuminance: phots (CGS), foot-candles, lux (SI), lumens per square meter (metric, equivalent to lux)

Moreover, luminance units are often used for illuminance, and vice versa. Are we having fun yet?
Welcome to the Land of the Fee...

BTW, sloscheider, how's that Brexit thing working out for you?
True enough. Just imagine the cost of everyone ... (show quote)

Actually I'm a US citizen, I live in Minnesota. All the mechanics I know already have to stock both systems of tools, including myself and yes it does get expensive. When I was in Puerto Rico they're distance signage was in kilometers and their speed limit was in mph LOL

Reply
Jan 22, 2019 00:52:31   #
sloscheider Loc: Minnesota
 
Kozan wrote:
As far as engineering goes, the US is already on the metric system. Electrical Engineering goes by the ISO standard.

Thankfully true! Remember the Mars orbiter we lost when one team used imperial units even though NASA has specified SI units of measure?

Reply
Jan 22, 2019 02:23:06   #
User ID
 
Bipod wrote:
It time someone talked about WHY exposure is so confusing.

It's because of the way manufacture's label camera settings. They don't apply base 2 logarithms
consistently.

There are two reasonable rules:
1. Each detent on a control (aperture, shutter, ISO, exposure compenstation) must be EXACTLY
twice (or half) the exposure of the previous detent; and
2 Each should be labeled in integers: ... -3, -2, -1, 0, 1, 2, 3....

If you do this consistantly, you get the Additive Photographic Exposure System (APEX)
which was standardized way back in 1960 (ASA standard ASA PH2.5-1960) and was used
in industry and by the military (where confusion is not OK).

EC knobs (and menus) generally follow both rules: No compensation is labeled "0". Increasing
exposure by one stop is labled "1". Decreasing exposure by one stop is labeled "-1". Anyone
confused by this? Pretty simple, right?

F-numbers follow Rule 1, but not Rule 2. The sequence 1, 1.4, 2, 2.8, 4, 5.6, etc. is a lot more
complicated than 1,2,3,4,5... And you don't need to know the actual f-stop ratio unless you are
building a camera.

Shutter speeds are a mess. They follow neither rule. This sequence makes sense:
1, 2, 4, 8, 16, 32, 64, 128, 256, 512, .... This one doesn't: 1, 2, 4, 8, 15, 30, 60, 125, 250, 500, .....
What's the rule for latter sequence, pray tell?

ISO speeds are given in two different sysems: ASA and DIN. Both follow Rule 1, but only DIN
follows Rule 2. The ISO "standard" is to use BOTH! (Sure sign of a gutless committee trying to
please everybody.) The ASA number isn't even logarithmic. And ASA 100 is DIN 21 -- why 21?
"Historical reasons".

Finally, Exposure values follow Rule 1 but not Rule 2 -- again for "historical reasons".
"Historical reasons" is a polite way of saying S.N.A.F.U.

Exposure is confusing because of the silly, stupid, inconsitent way in which cameras controls
are labeled.

Here's the "Sunny 16" rule in the traditional Tower of Babel system:

At approx. EV 15 and f/16, use shutter speed 1/ASA speed
for example:
At approx. EV 15 and f/16 and ASA 100, use 1/100th sec

(which of course, isn't even a detent on the shutter dial-it only has 125.)

Here the general rule in APEX:

TimeValue + ApertureValue = SensitvityValue + Brightness
E.g., at approx. EV 15:
5 + 8 = 5 + 8

Does this math confuse anybody? Dang simple, if you ask me.
So by subtracting SensitivityValue from both sides:

Brightness = TimeValue + ApertureValue - SensitivtyValue
8 = 5 + 8 - 5

As usual, people are willing to update their hardware and software (= buy stuff) but not their thinking.
Picture a cave man holding a Nikon. "Og like take photos. But Og confused by exposure." No wonder!


For reference, here's the basic system, as standardized in 1960.

APEX SYSTEM (per ASA PH2.5-1960)

Note: this may differ from EXIF Version 2.2.

APERTURE

f-number APEX
1 0
1.4 1
2 2
2.8 3
4 4
5.6 5
8 6
11 7
16 8
22 9
etc.

SHUTTER SPEED

The original APEX standard kept the irregular shutter times: 1, 1/2, 1/4,1/8, 1/15, 1/30, 1/60, 1/125....

In fact, some cameras are already calibrated to 1/16, 1/32, 1/64... Shutters are rarely accurate enough
to tell the difference except at 1/15 <> 1/16.

Nominal Sec. APEX
1 1 0
2 1/2 1
15 1/15 2
30 1/30 3
60 1/60 4
125 1/125 5
250 1/250 6
500 1/500 7
1000 1/1000 8
etc.

FILM/SENSOR SPEED


ASA DIN APEX
100 21 5
200 22 6
400 23 7
800 24 8
1600 25 9
etc.


BRIGHTNESS

Again, the original standard kept the irregular shutter speeds, so it had to have
irregular brightnesses as well.


APEX FOOT LAMBERTS
1 2
2 4
3 8
4 15
5 30
6 60
7 125
8 250
9 500
10 1000
etc.
It time someone talked about WHY exposure is so co... (show quote)



Reply
Jan 22, 2019 05:55:08   #
tonal Loc: Greece
 
We got a light metering system built in our cameras, we have the ability to choose 1/2 or 1/3 of a stop at least for shutter and aperture, and for keeping things simple we have rounded shutter speeds.
I would remember 1/16, 1/32 or 1/1024th of a second but I am an engineer and I do remember by heart the powers of 2.
Rounding to 1/15, 1/30 or 1/1000th of a second is not a big deal of an error and makes the life easier for everybody to remember.

I really cannot understand all the fuss about it...

Reply
 
 
Jan 22, 2019 05:56:13   #
RichardTaylor Loc: Sydney, Australia
 
.

Reply
Jan 22, 2019 06:29:48   #
lonewolf456
 
As a beginner knowing very little about a cameras capabilities, I am now more scared. Maybe I should just stick with my phone camera.

Reply
Jan 22, 2019 06:38:26   #
Jimmy T Loc: Virginia
 
rmalarz wrote:
A fun read. Exposure isn't that confusing. It's actually quite simple, until this sort of thing comes along. Nothing like obsfucating a simple topic.
--Bob



Reply
Jan 22, 2019 06:41:45   #
Jimmy T Loc: Virginia
 
I CONCUR!!! ALL CAPS INTENTIONAL!!!!
Cany143 wrote:
If I were trying to understand exposure based on things I read today, I probably wouldn't get close to a reasonably exposed shot. Exposure --and the shutter speed, aperture, ISO/ASA/EI values that determine it-- is not the stuff of convoluted analogies, computational mathematics, or lengthy confabulations. Its the stuff of go-out-and-shoot-it while paying freaking attention to what you aimed the camera at, and what settings you used that worked or the settings you used that didn't work. Jeez!
If I were trying to understand exposure based on t... (show quote)



Reply
 
 
Jan 22, 2019 06:50:40   #
Jimmy T Loc: Virginia
 
I trust my Canon Camera to give me the correct exposure, in P, AV, TV, M, C1, C2, or C3.
Then I "Chimp" and adjust as I wish for a favorable outcome.
I don't need no stinkin EV, RS, or RSVP.
Bipod wrote:
Say you own three light meters, Bob: a Nikon, a Pentax and a Gossen.
All are factory calibrated and working perfectly.
The Nikon meter says the EV is 14.
What does the Pentax meter read?
What does the Gossen meter read?

If they are different, can you explain why?
And which one is correct?

Remember: exposure is simple!

Reply
Jan 22, 2019 07:15:15   #
BebuLamar
 
Bipod wrote:
Say you own three light meters, Bob: a Nikon, a Pentax and a Gossen.
All are factory calibrated and working perfectly.
The Nikon meter says the EV is 14.
What does the Pentax meter read?
What does the Gossen meter read?

If they are different, can you explain why?
And which one is correct?

Remember: exposure is simple!


Nikon doesn't make stand alone meter but their cameras are calibrated with K12.5 while the Pentax Spotmeter is calibrated with K14. If the Gossen doesn't agree with either is probably has the wrong battery in it.

Reply
Jan 22, 2019 07:15:43   #
cdayton
 
DeanS wrote:
I have memorized this, when do I get to take the test?😎😎😎


Tomorrow at 15:30.

Reply
Jan 22, 2019 07:18:42   #
cdayton
 
sloscheider wrote:
When you get the above common sense changes to take place your next assignment is to get us Yanks to move on over to the metric system! I’ll support your political party, just say the word. It’s only the US, Burma and Liberia left to go metric...

Completely agree. And just for fun, I19 south of Tucson, AZ has distances in kilometers but speed limits in mph. It’s a leftover from the effort to convert a few decades ago.

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