69vet

Always keep replaced parts,they are your property

TriX Loc: Raleigh, NC

Jerry, If you decide to check with an ohmmeter (or megger), here’s the procedure:

1) turn off the breaker
2) unhook ALL the wires from the pump to your underground cable.
3) if the pump is 120 volts, check the resistance from black wire in the cable AND the pump to ground - should be open or very high resistance. The underground white wire (neutral) should show a short or low resistance to ground. The white wire to the pump should show open or high resistance to ground.
4) if the pump is 240 volts, both wires from either the underground wire or the pump should show open or very high resistance to ground.
5) if any of these tests fails, report back to the thread and we can go into further detail.

Dannj

Somebody you know must know “a guy” you can call. That’s what everybody I know does.

One Rude Dawg Loc: Athol, ID

Start with the cheapest easiest fix first. Keep in mind breakers get old and weak and trip all the time . Start there then do the wiring like others suggest.

Alan1729 Loc: England UK, now New York State.

I had to replace 120 foot of water line to my well a few years ago four foot deep. If I were laying an electrical cable I would definitely put it in conduit at any depth to be able to pull a replacement. I wish I could have been able to pull a replacement waterline, it's hard work digging even with a backhoe.

As far as fault finding I've always subscribed to the divide and concur approach also check out the easiest or cheapest parts first. That way there is less chance of wasting money. Another saying to add to your list is nothing lasts for ever. Pressure switches and breakers do fail quit often sometimes just out of the box.

Good luck.

jerryc41 Loc: Catskill Mts of NY

Good idea, but knowing this company, they'll say there was a core charge on the new one, or they already "recycled" the old pump.

jerryc41 Loc: Catskill Mts of NY

It's funny, but this guy has said that every component in the system is no good, except for the pump. The circuit breaker is old, outdated, and no good. The wiring is old, brittle, and rusted (copper). The original plastic pipe leading to the pump is weak and brittle. Granted, everything is 55 years old, but it still functions - and we have new piping going to the pump.

jerryc41 Loc: Catskill Mts of NY

Yes, I'm amazed they didn't use conduit for the wiring, but the buyer is unlikely to examine wire buried that deep. You're right about the checking the simplest cause. They chose to blame the pump, rather than check the circuit breaker or that relay box. There's not much money in that, is there?

Bipod

I've pulled and replaced a pump from a 200' well, run a video camera to the bottom,
and replaced all the wiring. I gave up reading replies, so this may duplicate some responses.

WARNING: do not leave power switched on to the pump for more than about
20 seconds until you deterimine what the problem is. You could overheat the pump.

All we know from your initial post is "no water when pump switched on".
You have eliminated the pressure switch as the cause. Possible causes:
Plumbing--
* Underground pipe is frozen
* A valve is shut off
* Plugged inlet
* Well is dry (static water level below pump intake)
Electrical--
* Break in wires within the well
* Bad starting capacitor (in pump or in box at well head -- see below)
* Bad pump motor

Dry well is unlikely, unless the pump hasn't been used for a while.
Normally, when a well goes dry, the pump sucks the water level below
the intake (and so pumps some water) months before the static water level
falls below the input. Also, it is unsual in most climates for wells to go
dry in the winteretime. In the West at least, wells go dry in the late
summer or early fall -- after recharge from snowpack meltoff has ceased
and agricutlural use of ground water is at a peak.

To diagnose, you need to check to see if any current is flowing through
the circuilt when the pump is switched on.

You can tell if power is getting to the pump by putting a clamp-on ammeter on one of the wires
(white or black) coming from the pump at any convenient location. Or you can just pay attention
to see if the lights in the house dim a bit when the pump is switched on. However, the load
on a centrifugal pump depends on the volume of water it is lifting, so if the inlet is plugged
or the well is dry, there will be very little load (but a serious danger that the pump motor will
overheat, since it relies on water for cooling).

A well that deep requires a 250 VAC pump (almost all are single-phase). This requires
a starting capacitor.

Some pumps are 2-wire (or 3 with a ground) and others are 4-wire (or 5 with a ground).
The difference is whether the starting capacitor is in the pump or at the box at the top.
Failure of the starting capacitor is a possible cause--if power is getting to the pump.
If it's 4- or 5-wire pump, then the starting capacitor is in a box at the well-head and is
replaceable.

Some wells are equipped with a dry-run protector, which has to be calibrated to the pump.
If it loses its calibration, it can trip everytime the pump is turned on. You didn't mention
one, so I'll assume this isn't a factor.

TriX Loc: Raleigh, NC

Very comprehensive troubleshooting procedure. After rereading Jerry’s original post, I noted that the plumber measured power at the pressure switch, but not if the pump was drawing current (maybe he didn’t have an amprobe - I doubt many plumbers do). I also note that Jerry said that the breaker popped after “minutes”. I would expect that if there was a ground fault or dead short in the wiring, that the breaker would pop immediately. That kind of suggests that the pump may be stalled - could be a bad motor starting cap or the inlet could be clogged or? Do well pumps have thermal protection for overheat?

Bipod

I missed the breaker popping. Thanks for the help.

It could as simple as a short circuit somewhere in the wiring. Breakers often take
a while to pop when barely overloaded. The starting capacitor is also a possibility.

All deep well pumps are multi-stage centrifugals, not positive displacement.
The only thing that can stall a centrifugal pump is a piece of debris stuck inside.
Plugging the inlet causes the pump to spin freely (and cavitate, if there is water
inside, which can damage the impellers) and the motor to overheat from lack
of cooling water.

If the pressure tank doesn't have a bladder inside (most older ones and some
new ones don't), then the drop pipe will have an orifice or valve about
8 or 12 feet below the well head. The purpose of this is to let the water run
out from this section of pipe every time the pump is shut off. Simulatenously,
a "bleeder valve" (a Schrader valve, like an auto tire valve stem) located at
the well head admits air. This "gulp" of air then gets sent to the pressure tank
the next time the pump is turned on. This prevents the pressure tank from
getting water-logged. An Air Control Valve on he tank has a float that
allows excess air to escape. So three valves prevent water logging of
bladderless tanks.

There is always a check valve on the main line at the well head. This prevents
water in the main from draining back down the well. In addition, there will
usually a be a check valve in the drop pipe (standpipe) every 100'. So in a
200' well, there will be a check valve 100' from the top and usually one
right above the pump (unless built into the pump).

It helps to draw the entire plumbing diagram, and he the electrical diagram.
Also a depth chart showing the depth measured from top-of-casing of top of pipe,
standpipe and each valve (orifice if present and check valves), static water level,
pump, bottom of casing, and bottom of well.

If the OP has the driller's log for his well, this will help enormously. If the driller
also put down the pump, it should give the pump type and depth.

If the top of the casing isn't sealed, then maye he can look down the well and
see the water dribbling when the pump is first shut off. If the orifice doens't
have a ball inside, then he'll see water squirting out when the pump is on.
This tells you water is being lifted to the well head.

If the casing is sealed, he may still be able to hear the water from the
orafice hitting the casing, and you can probably hear the pump as well,
if the motor is turning over and you press your ear to the casing.

Some well pump electric motors have thermal overload protection, most don't.
As the motor heats up, it's electrical resitance should increase. The breaker
won't blow unless the motor (or something else) shorts.

A shorted capacitor could very well prevent the motor from starting and
blow the breaker. If the short has some resistance (at it usually would),
it could take a minute for the breaker to blow.

I feel sorry for the OP, because I know what's it like not having water, how
helpless one feels, and how expensive well repairs can be. But there is light
at the end of the tunnel (or bottom of the well?), provided one gets a good
diagnosis before spending any big money or doing anything drastic.

Plumbers generally have little experience with wells and well drillers can
be a great help or just talk you into stuff you don't need--depending on
how honest they are.

The best thing in any well work (and I once helped a friend drill a 300'
foot water well with a rotary rig), is to stop and think. Before putting
anything down that hole, or pulling anything up, or digging anythnig up,
it's best to sleep on it.

TriX Loc: Raleigh, NC

Good points, and I feel for Jerry also, he’s a great guy. I’m a city boy (although I’ve worked on a cattle ranch), so I have zero first-hand knowledge of well pumps - I’ve learned a great deal from your post.

frankraney Loc: Clovis, Ca.

Jerry, the wires to the house are good or three breaker would not reset.. The problem is the wiring to the well when the pressure switch makes up to send the voltage to the pump it shorts out so the wiring between the pressure switch and the pump is bad. Or if you do not have a pump saver you're well could be dry it could be trying to pump sand or dirt and bogging the pump down causing it to draw too much current, which would not be instanious, but probably less than a minute.

My best guess is wires shorted going to the pump from the pressure switch caused by vibration.....a new pump was not needed. I would not pay for it, if I'm right.....

BTW... Just because they are a big company doesn't mean they know what they are doing...... When it comes to Wells, you always want a well company to work on it.

They should have sounded your well to tell where the water level is, and by knowing how much pipe is going down to the pump, they would know if there pump is deep enough and not running dry. They could have done a meggar test on the wiring also to of it is bad.

He is a plumber, not an electrician.... Or her would know from what's happening, it's not the wiring from the house, but instead what I said.... And would have done better testing before installing a new pump....

Send me a pm if you want to talk, and I'll call you.

Bipod

Great points.

It's possible there has now been a "cascade of failures".
Or even two separate problems.

In terms of what is likely to fail suddenly, I come up with:
* Pressure switch (ruled out)
* Short in well wiring (perhaps a junction box at the well head has flooded?
Or insulation on the drop cable has worn off?--unlikely if properly installed)
* Starting capacitor for well pump motor
* Frozen pipe
* AC grid brownout causing motor burn-out

Well pumps are quite sensitive to AC voltage, so it might be worth
checking that for for both legs of the 250 VAC: A to neutral,
B to neutral, and A to B. Not likely to be a problem but who knows...

We have our own diesel generator here, so I've run into quite few
power problems in the last 30 years.

IGBTQ2 Loc: California

Bad insulation on the wire will allow leakage current to ground and trip the breaker. A megger can be used to test the insulation of the wire in the well; which really should have been replaced with the pump IMHO. The buried wire between the house and the well can also be tested with a megger; no need to replace it or run a piece above ground to find out, that's the hard way. Mud/sand/silt in the bottom of the well will bog down the pump and trip the breaker; not to mention eventually burn up the pump. Use an amp meter with min/max hold to measure the trip current at the breaker. If it's less than 80-90% of the breakers rating, you have a bad breaker. If it's more and you've ruled out the wire and pump, you're probably pumping sand or mud. Troubleshooting is cheaper and more efficient than parts changing.