Zone system placing tones
Jan 1, 2019 14:47:03 #
Hi all,
This is just something I have been playing with, using the zone system has advantages but one problem is that lightroom doesn't tell you what zones different parts of your image is in and its quite hard to eyeball , especially if you do not have a properly calibrated monitor. So I found this.
Now if you use the white balance tool in lightroom it gives rgb % e.g zone 6 is about 58-66% zone 5 around 46- 55% ...
Color naturally is harder to measure but the black & white conversion will simplify things to a single value, you can then measure a tone and adjust to where you want it and switch back to color.
E.g with one exposure i was able to adjust about 0.4 of a stop brighter to place the tone where it should be. Nik silverfx has an overlay which will tell you what's in each zone but it's a round trip you don't want to take before you have things in the ballpark.
What do you think?
This is just something I have been playing with, using the zone system has advantages but one problem is that lightroom doesn't tell you what zones different parts of your image is in and its quite hard to eyeball , especially if you do not have a properly calibrated monitor. So I found this.
Now if you use the white balance tool in lightroom it gives rgb % e.g zone 6 is about 58-66% zone 5 around 46- 55% ...
Color naturally is harder to measure but the black & white conversion will simplify things to a single value, you can then measure a tone and adjust to where you want it and switch back to color.
E.g with one exposure i was able to adjust about 0.4 of a stop brighter to place the tone where it should be. Nik silverfx has an overlay which will tell you what's in each zone but it's a round trip you don't want to take before you have things in the ballpark.
What do you think?
Jan 1, 2019 14:58:50 #
How do you apply this? Individual radial filters over the adjusted areas? I ask because figuring out the zone system has been a long time mystery for me.
Jan 1, 2019 15:02:32 #
my measurements are
0 = 1-6
1 = 7-13.5
2 = 15.8-22.6
3 = 25-33
4 = 35-44
5 = 46-55
6 = 57-66
7 = 68-77
8 = 79-86
9 = 87-94
10 = 95-99.6
Actually that pretty much puts the top of each zone at zone zone e.g zone 7 = 77 top and 66 is the top of zone 6 , all of a sudden it gets easier :)
0 = 1-6
1 = 7-13.5
2 = 15.8-22.6
3 = 25-33
4 = 35-44
5 = 46-55
6 = 57-66
7 = 68-77
8 = 79-86
9 = 87-94
10 = 95-99.6
Actually that pretty much puts the top of each zone at zone zone e.g zone 7 = 77 top and 66 is the top of zone 6 , all of a sudden it gets easier :)
Jan 1, 2019 15:21:41 #
rgrenaderphoto wrote:
How do you apply this? Individual radial filters over the adjusted areas? I ask because figuring out the zone system has been a long time mystery for me.
Well if grass is usually zone 5 it's rgb value wants to be around 45 - 55 % so you can make a base exposure adjustment to place it in that area.
dodging and burning can raise and lower tones, each zone is a stop wide so you could figure an appropriate level from what you measure to what you want it to be. In color work it may end up a tad un natural.
It's something i'm just experimenting with, it may be a dead end but if you are going to print then at least having zone 5 in its range should give a print that is reasonable close to the tones it should have not overly dark or light. You might be able to figure out contrast ratios between the shadow and light.
https://www.videomaker.com/article/c03/18984-how-to-calculate-contrast-ratios-for-more-professional-lighting-setups
i guess there is no reason you couldn't measure a photo you like and see where the tones are.
Jan 1, 2019 20:40:20 #
Great approach, blackest. I’m going to join you in experimenting with this.
Andy
Andy
Jan 1, 2019 21:36:05 #
AndyH wrote:
Great approach, blackest. I’m going to join you in experimenting with this.
Andy
Andy
It does seem to work quite well adjusting the base exposure for a good midtone value and setting the white and black points around 95% and 5%
Jan 2, 2019 08:26:01 #
Jan 2, 2019 08:52:45 #
Forget about the Zone System. Ansel Adams developed it so that film and paper could reproduce the full tonal range in a picture. The histogram now does that. However, the Zone System and related methods are obsolete in digital technology. Thanks to the screen on the back of your camera, you can assess the exposure immediately and thanks to automatic bracketing, you can bracket your shots effortlessly. In the end, you judge exposure subjectively and with your own eyes, not by a histogram or matching zones.
Jan 2, 2019 09:37:54 #
The Zone System worked very well for me when I was using b&w film. I did experiment with developers and development times to find the best rendition of tones that were pleasant to my eyes.
With digital I still depend on the Zone System for the exposure but that is the end of it. My b&w conversions are done with Topaz B&W Effects 2 but I depend on my eyes and taste when it comes to tonalities.
With digital I still depend on the Zone System for the exposure but that is the end of it. My b&w conversions are done with Topaz B&W Effects 2 but I depend on my eyes and taste when it comes to tonalities.
Jan 2, 2019 09:56:16 #
abc1234 wrote:
Forget about the Zone System. Ansel Adams develop... (show quote)
one of the problems with judging exposure subjectively is you can pull the tones up or down just by adjusting the monitor brightness. It's a very common issue particularly when it comes to printing. Digital cameras tend to have a lot of latitude on exposure. Iso sensitivity isn't chemistry but math. If you haven't blown the highlights chances are your midtones are underexposed and as for the shadows...
Still you can work how you want to work, i think there is still some value in the zone system you don't, no worries we don't have to work the same way.
Jan 2, 2019 10:21:10 #
abc1234 wrote:
Forget about the Zone System. Ansel Adams develop... (show quote)
There are several very talented photographers on this forum that will disagree with you about the validity of the zone system in digital photography. I don't consider myself in that group but I do understand the zone system and there is nothing about the concept that would preclude its use no matter if you use film or digital.
Jan 2, 2019 11:33:02 #
blackest wrote:
one of the problems with judging exposure subjecti... (show quote)
While I do not adjust my monitor's brightness, a bigger problem is how monitors vary from user to user. What might look great on your screen might be no so on mine.
Here is my issue. I am a scientist so I like "scientific" explanations and methods. The Zone System, ETTR and other methods appeal to my scientific side. However, I do not do photography for the sake of science. I do it for artistic and journalist reasons. Aside from composition and subject matter, I expect a photograph to have a certain brightness and other characteristics and that is more important than where Zone V is.
We do agree that we do not have to work the same way and we may agree to disagree as to what that best brightness is. I just think that "scientific" methods are overrated.
Jan 2, 2019 11:34:06 #
camerapapi wrote:
The Zone System worked very well for me when I was using b&w film. I did experiment with developers and development times to find the best rendition of tones that were pleasant to my eyes.
With digital I still depend on the Zone System for the exposure but that is the end of it. My b&w conversions are done with Topaz B&W Effects 2 but I depend on my eyes and taste when it comes to tonalities.
With digital I still depend on the Zone System for the exposure but that is the end of it. My b&w conversions are done with Topaz B&W Effects 2 but I depend on my eyes and taste when it comes to tonalities.
I presume you use sheet film. Or what did you do if you used roll film?
Jan 2, 2019 11:41:57 #
Rich1939 wrote:
There are several very talented photographers on this forum that will disagree with you about the validity of the zone system in digital photography. I don't consider myself in that group but I do understand the zone system and there is nothing about the concept that would preclude its use no matter if you use film or digital.
Photographers were using systems way before Ansel Adams formalized the Zone System. They knew intuitively about the contrast of their subjects and films. They also knew to develop by inspection and by using different developers and times. And I will bet you that no photographer, film or digital, uses the Zone System, ETTR, or any other method without deviating any. Why? Because we know that what matters ultimately is how the final product looks, not how we got there. As I said in an accompanying post, I think those methods are overrated.
Jan 2, 2019 12:11:40 #
abc1234 wrote:
Photographers were using systems way before Ansel ... (show quote)
Yes we know what matters to us in the end product and how to get there is of course very important to us. Knowing what you want and how to get there are to me equally important as one without the other equals failure. Do different practitioners of a method stray from the straight and narrow? Of course, that should be understood without saying. Are certain methods overrated? I personally wouldn't want to go there as each of us should try to figure out for ourselves what works. Dissuading someone from trying out something that might be just the thing for them would be wrong.
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