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A point that's often overlooked when discussing how to shoot a full moon
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Oct 27, 2018 13:32:20   #
Haydon
 
Architect1776 wrote:
Why I choose 100-400mm L MII with 2X MIII at f5.6, ISO 100 and 1/125 sec. is that is a good starting point.
The 100-400mm L MII is the same quality with or without the converter so I get an 800mm lens equivalent. (1,280mm view on my APSC camera)


The 100-400 v2 handles teleconverters well but there will ALWAYS be a hit in IQ. It may not be that noticeable with 1.4x (5%) but it's seen with a 2x (20-25%) definitely. In post sharpness can be partially recovered but there will be a loss in contrast. I've used both on my Canon 500 F4 and it's definitely visible with the 2x especially when compared to the native lens. On the 1.4x a small amount of sharpening is all that is required. There's never a free lunch with extenders. I can use both without loss of autofocus but there are trade offs.

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Oct 27, 2018 13:33:12   #
Linda From Maine Loc: Yakima, Washington
 
Bobspez wrote:
I use iso-100, lowest available f-stop (lens wide open) and change the shutter speed until I get a good contrast of light and dark areas in the live view lcd screen. I shoot hand held and raw. This always seems to work for me with every camera and lens. Then I crop in Photoshop and tweak the contrast, shadows and highlights. It seems the longer the focal length the better. The attached was taken with the Coolpix B700. The focal length is listed as 361mm, though with the small sensor the equivalent focal length is 1440mm. Because it's the moon, the small sensor's lack of EQ and color depth doesn't matter. The shot was taken at iso-100, f6.5, 1/500 sec.
I use iso-100, lowest available f-stop (lens wide ... (show quote)
Thank you for an easy to understand "why" and how

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Oct 27, 2018 13:35:15   #
Linda From Maine Loc: Yakima, Washington
 
JFCoupe wrote:
I think you points are very good and will be very helpful to many photographers. I would like to add additional comments to the discussion of good moon photography.
I have frequently photographed full moons from my yard in Kent, WA (15 miles from Seattle) and been disappointed in the overall sharpness of the images. (Both with a Canon full frame and 300 mm f2.8 L with 2x TC and more recently an Olympus EM1 MK II and Panasonic 100-400mm lens.

In late September I was in Alaska on a polar bear photography trip and in a stop over in Fairbanks had an opportunity to go about 30 miles outside Fairbanks to shoot Aurora images. The moon was about half full that night and I took a few images of it. I was amazed at how sharp my images were of the moon compared to images shot at home. This leads me to two issues I have not come to a firm conclusion on:

1. Impact of air pollution on sharp moon images
2. Impact of light pollution on sharp moon images.

I think my next step will be to get further outside the city at the next cloudless, full moon and see if light or air pollution are really factors.

Thanks,
I think you points are very good and will be very ... (show quote)
Many thanks for your time and interest! Atmospheric conditions (haze, thin clouds, humidity etc) are a huge factor in image clarity. I was hoping to keep this particular discussion more about exposure (at the moment, while the cats are still amenable to herding) for those who are struggling with the concepts. The idea of "random experimenting" causes me pain

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Oct 27, 2018 13:36:18   #
Linda From Maine Loc: Yakima, Washington
 
jak86094 wrote:
Linda,

You've made some great points. Here is an image I made of the blue moon on January 30, 2018 using my D7000 and Nikkor 200-500mm lens. I set it at the full 500mm focal length, even though it might have been a bit sharper if I'd shot at less than the extreme magnification (e.g., 400mm). ISO of 110 was nearly the lowest possible (ISO 100 for that body). F/8 is quite sharp with this lens. At those settings, I needed to add a little exposure compensation for a proper exposure (+1.33 ev). This was an experiment in focus stacking, so I took 8 shots in all. At shutter speed of 1/100, it was possible to take 8 shots with minimal movement of the moon. Using the focus stacking tools in Affinity Photo was quick and easy, aligning the 8 images as layers and combining the eight layers. The result is quite sharp with almost no noise. It also got rid of the light glow around the moon that I believe is caused by the moonlight passing through the Earth's atmosphere. I started with a couple of shots, studied the results, then adjusted my settings until I was pleased with the exposure before taking my 8 shots for stacking. Just an example of what you were discussing. jak
Linda, br br You've made some great points. Here... (show quote)
Thanks so much!

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Oct 27, 2018 13:38:07   #
Linda From Maine Loc: Yakima, Washington
 
larryepage wrote:
A big plus is a location with dry, clear, air at all levels of the atmosphere. Moisture and atmospheric instability are the biggest detriments to sharpness. Clouds in the area indicate the presence of both moisture and instability. Instability means that the air is "different" at different levels, leading to all sorts of possible distortion from refraction at layer boundaries and other sorts of ugliness. But if it gets too cold, ice crystals, especially at higher levels, can also cause problems for a number of reasons including, yes, diffraction. This can even be visible when a hazy circle is visible around the moon.

One change I made after learning what lunar material really looks like is that I now make images that are significantly darker than the ones I used to make. If you have a chance to see actual lunar material, you will be surprised to find that most of it that has been returned to earth looks surprisingly like an 18% gray card...some of it maybe a stop lighter. It is not white at all. We perceive the moon as nearly white because of its contrast to blue sky when we see it in the daytime or with our eyes dark-adjusted when we see it at night. There is absolutely nothing artistically wrong with portraying the moon this way, but that is not the way it really is. The most accurate images are those that include a lot of medium gray.

And while some may get good results by spot metering the moon, I do not recommend doing that, because the full moon covers an angle of only somewhere between 0.4 and 0.5 degrees. Most really good standalone spot meters cover 1 or 2 degrees, meaning that even they are including a big blob of dark sky when taking a reading. Most in-camera spot meters are even wider than that. Anything short of a 400mm lens on a full frame calera is going to include dark sky even in a spot meter reading.

The moon does move through the sky. It moves about 14.4 degrees per hour (360/25, if you are counting.) That means that it moves its own diameter about every 1.7 - 2.1 minutes. At a shutter speed of 1/100 second, that is about 1/12,000 of its diameter. So if it is filling your eyepiece, that works out to probably half a pixel for a D850. For a more typical framing or smaller sensor, it would be somewhat less. Summary: Use 1/200 or a little faster and don't worry about it too much.
A big plus is a location with dry, clear, air at a... (show quote)
Thank you, Larry, especially for pointing out that brightness and whiteness are more about our personal choices than the reality

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Oct 27, 2018 13:43:59   #
Linda From Maine Loc: Yakima, Washington
 
Architect1776 wrote:
So bottom line start with the sunny 16 rule then adjust your camera to suit your taste and desire. It is all free so experimenting only costs a few minutes.
Gene51 wrote:
A full moon is flatly lit - so it will lack the shadows and contrast that help define crisp details. Even an almost full moon has better contrast than the full moon.

Though it is a bit of an urban legend, no "Sunny 16" here. Maybe Sunny 11 - nothing has changed with the moon - it's just that Sunny 16 doesn't and never did apply -
Thank you for your time, Gene and Architect!

Wikipedia suggests "Loony 11"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunny_16_rule

My personal problem with "sunny 16" is I am losing up to three stops for no good reason. Since I hate tripods and have become rather wobbly, I need those 3 stops for shutter speed.

Olympus OMD EM-10 at 250 mm, f/6.7, 1/500 sec, ISO 400, shortly after sunset. Note the phase is less than full, helping to reveal craters on the edge.

I did raise the exposure 1 stop while in my raw editor. Also, to that end I changed WB from auto to "fluorescent" and my moon went from orangish to sparkling white - my personal preference for this one


(Download)

Prior to cropping.
Prior to cropping....

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Oct 27, 2018 13:48:30   #
Haydon
 
Thanks for posting this thread Linda. Your words brought me back to Bryan Peterson's book "Understanding Exposure" describing how a well exposed image can be made with a multitude of settings. Many newcomers are looking for the magic formula. There are many combinations available, the key is finding the creative one. Personally I shoot a couple of stops up from wide open when photographing the moon.

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Oct 27, 2018 13:51:34   #
Linda From Maine Loc: Yakima, Washington
 
lukevaliant wrote:
thanks again linda for posting such great topics i learn alot from you and jerry also
Haydon wrote:
Thanks for posting this thread Linda. Your words brought me back to Bryan Peterson's book "Understanding Exposure" describing how a well exposed image can be made with a multitude of settings. Many newcomers are looking for the magic formula. There are many combinations available, the key is finding the creative one. Personally I shoot a couple of stops up from wide open when photographing the moon.
Luke and Haydon, thank you. I will have to remember the "there is no magic formula" phrase to share next time I lecture a newbie on the importance of understanding exposure

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Oct 27, 2018 13:55:24   #
Linda From Maine Loc: Yakima, Washington
 
abc1234 wrote:
. Forget about all this specific advice that says this or that lens or focal length. Likewise about exposure. Use what does the job at hand.
The purpose of this thread is to assist newbies who don't understand what the "job" is. Explaining WHY someone chooses the settings they do is one way to achieve that goal. For example, I explained above why I need a fast shutter speed.

abc1234 wrote:
Select a focal length that allows you to fill up the frame.
IMO focal length comes into play only when pointing out that if a moon fills just a tiny portion of your frame, you have to be realistic regarding how much cropping can be done. We see similar unrealistic expectations with bird photography. In cases like that, there are other options. For the moon, one option is to include it in a landscape at sunrise or sunset.

.

An old, old photo!
An old, old photo!...

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Oct 27, 2018 14:25:07   #
User ID
 
lukevaliant wrote:


ok i read the lens dif link and now my head hurts



Your head hurts ? Not your fault. It's not a good
article. All that stuff about wave interference is
overly complex and NOT very relevant.

What is relevant is that light beams bend a bit
off of their course upon encountering a crisp or
well defined physical edge. No need to realize
that those beams are made of waves. You can
easily ignore wave physics !

The edge of the aperture iris blades is a very
well defined edge, so it bends light beams off
of their normal path.

Any beams that aren't behaving in the manner
that the lens elements have "ordered them" to
behave are NOT part of the sharp well focused
image emanating from the lens elements.

At wide [large] apertures, and also at middle
apertures, the proportion of light beams that
never skim the edge of the aperture iris will be
hugely greater than the amount of beams that
get corrupted by skimming past the iris blades.
Realize that you'll have some corrupted beams
at every aperture setting, but when they are a
tiny fraction of the whole image they can't do
any visible damage.

The diffraction problem is due to the increase
in that "tiny fraction" at small apertures. The
amount of corrupted beams won't outnumber
the intact beams, but that minority of beams
that get corrupted by diffraction will become a
more influential minority and visibly degrade
the overall image.

Thaz the whole story. Take two aspirin and
forget about wave interference patterns :-)


`

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Oct 27, 2018 14:29:51   #
Strodav Loc: Houston, Tx
 
Architect1776 wrote:
Why is it obsolete?
Did things change with the moon?
It gets me there still just fine.


Totally agree. I still use this rule as a sanity check on my camera meter's suggested settings. It is second nature to me and I find it helpful and comforting.

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Oct 27, 2018 14:37:33   #
Linda From Maine Loc: Yakima, Washington
 
Strodav wrote:
Totally agree. I still use this rule as a sanity check on my camera meter's suggested settings. It is second nature to me and I find it helpful and comforting.
Hopefully, everyone eventually learns enough about exposure to make informed choices that are right for themselves. I personally discovered a new level of happiness with auto-ISO

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Oct 27, 2018 14:57:06   #
User ID
 
`


There is a widespread misunderstanding about
"Sunny 16". "Sunny 16" is a verrrry old piece of
advice and dates back to before AE and a time
when every user knew [and used] the reciprocal
relation between f/stops and shutter speeds.

The widespread misunderstanding about "Sunny
16" is when folks think of it as a recommended
camera setting, which it is NOT. What is is is ....
a mnemonic that offers a point of reference for
setting stops and speeds, in relation to ASA or
ISO speed, for outdoor lighting according to the
weather, between 10AM and 3PM, as applied to
ordinary scenes and subjects.

Basically, one should almost never actually set
their lens to f/16 at a shutter speed reciprocal
to the ISO speed. It's really just like planning
to have 2.358 children in your family. IOW it's
just a point of reference, not a practical reality.


`

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Oct 27, 2018 14:59:40   #
Linda From Maine Loc: Yakima, Washington
 
User ID wrote:
There is a widespread misunderstanding about "Sunny 16". "Sunny 16" is a verrrry old piece of advice...
Most of us folks on UHH are very old

I agree about not recommending this whatever-classification-it-is to newbies.

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Oct 27, 2018 15:07:34   #
Architect1776 Loc: In my mind
 
Linda From Maine wrote:
Most of us folks on UHH are very old

I agree about not recommending this whatever-classification-it-is to newbies.


Here is an instructor's point of view on the subject.
Photos look pretty good to me.
https://www.picturecorrect.com/tips/photographing-the-moon/

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