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Apr 29, 2018 11:36:08   #
ToBoldlyGo Loc: London U.K.
 
gvarner wrote:
The long zoom on that P900 can reach out and touch more birds than most of the zooms you mentioned. I suspect it's more technique than anything. Plus back button focus is a must for birds in flight. Panning with multiple bursts might help with that if you can't BBF.


Technique can not compensate much for slow and innacurate AF on birds in flight. Yes it can be done with manual focus and has been, blah blah blah, but the camera is simply not up to the task of tracking fast moving objects. Now I would love some crazy expensive telephoto primes, they would deliver results. However I compromised on a 200-500, which is far superior to any superzoom camera. My point is that the OP will need to upgrade, but even then there are compromises to be decided on, and if the current equipment isn't up to it, I'm sorry but your advice isn't correct. No offence intended. Sorry if I've rambled a little too.

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Apr 29, 2018 14:42:22   #
amfoto1 Loc: San Jose, Calif. USA
 
prcb1949 wrote:
Hi there. I have just returned from a 10 day birding trip in Bulgaria. Whilst there I was in the company of other birders/ bird photographers who had a variety of cameras Nikon d5, d500 and a few cannons all sporting big glass 200-400 and 600 etc. I have been using the nikon coolpix p900 for the past two years, and whilst I have taken the odd very sharp pic on the whole the camera is quite limited for the kind of pics I aspire to take. I do understand that you generally get what you pay for and cannot expect my camera to compete with some of the cameras I was exposed to.

On my return I began to explore the possibility of an upgrade but my finances restrict me to the second hand market and whilst looking around I came across a number of Nikon d3300 for sale with a number of lenses at prices I could afford. Can anyone tell me if this camera is a suitable entry level camera for bird photography and if so what lenses should I be seeking to combine with the camera say begining with 70-300 VR etc ? I would be most grateful for some advice.
Hi there. I have just returned from a 10 day birdi... (show quote)


The D3300 will be fine... It will limit you a little, to what lenses you can use with it. In order to autofocus, the more entry level Nikon cameras require lenses with a built-in motor.... such as AF-S and AF-P. Other lenses without built in motor cannot autofocus on the D3000 and D5000 series cameras. (D5 and D500 you mention can autofocus both types of lenses.... those with motors and those without.)

Teh D3300 is an "APS-C/DX" crop sensor camera, which helps lenses "act longer" than they do on so-called "full frame/FX" camera. That's a good thing for birding!

Now, your P900 has "full frame equivalent 24mm to 2000mm" lens. It's lens focal length range really is nowhere near that... It's actual zoom range is 4.3mm to 357mm. But the camera uses a tiny sensor that makes the lens "act much longer" than it is. The P900's sensor is a 1/2.3" size... which is 4.56mm by 6.17mm, or about 28 square millimeters. The camera has 16 million pixel sites crowded onto that sensor... or well more than a half million, very tiny pixel sites per square millimeter. This significantly limits the camera's imaging capabilities, how high ISO you can use, as well as the quality of images.

The D3300, on the other hand, uses a much larger APS-C/DX sensor. The actual dimensions of it are 15.6mm by 23.7mm.... for a total of about 370 square millimeters (more than 10X the area of the P900's sensor!). The D3300 is a 24MP camera, so that sensor has a little less than 65,000 pixels per square millimeter. This means much larger, much less crowded individual pixel sites than the P900... making for better image quality and much higher usable ISO with the D3300. Yes, the even larger full frame sensor can be even better.... but it also makes for a more expensive camera, as well as bigger and more expensive lenses to use upon it.

A crop sensor/DX camera like the D3300 is a good compromise.... much improved IQ compared to your "ultra-zoom, bridge camera", yet still leveraging lens focal length to some extend. The Canon T7 is roughly equivalent to the D3300/D3400. The Nikon D5500 or Canon SL2 or T7i are step up models with some more features that might be important. For example, the step up models have an articulated Touch Screen LCD and self-cleaning sensors, both of which can be very helpful. If you travel a lot with your camera, you might appreciate the Canon SL2 in particular... it's the smallest DSLR currently in production (the 2nd smallest DSLR anyone's ever made... the slightly smaller SL1 is the smallest of all).

But any of these DSLR models will be a solid improvement over your P900 in many respects.

The "problem" will be the lenses you use on any of the DX/APS-C cameras. None of them will give you the equivalent of 2000mm that the P900 lays claim to! Canon made an EF 1200mm lens that would "act like 1920mm" if used upon one of those cameras.... But it's huge, weights 35 lb., is no longer in production and was only ever sold by special order anyway, so is quite rare.... and sells for upwards of $100,000 on the used market! Canon and Nikon both still make an 800mm lens, which will "act like 1200mm" or a little more on these cameras. But that's well short of the "2000mm equivalent" you've been using... and still quite large, heavy and expensive. (Note: The current Nikkor 800mm sells for over $16,000... the Canon is only a little less pricey, at $13,000.)

70-300mm really isn't enough lens for birding. It's better than nothing, but not by much. On a D3300 it will "act like 115-450mm".

Plus, Nikon makes several different 70-300mm. There's a cheap, non-VR, AF-P model that's often bundled with D3000-series cameras, which I'd avoid. It's just not all that great in terms of image quality.... uses slower stepper motor focus drive... plus it lacks image stabilization. It will cost more, but for faster moving subjects... particularly for birds in flight (BIF)... an AF-S focus drive lens with VR would be a better bet (or Canon's USM focus drive and IS lenses).

Even on a crop sensor DSLR, for birding you really need more lens than 70-300mm. At a minimum, 400mm.... But preferably 500mm or 600mm. Coming back down to planet Earth, still not cheap, but more affordable than the 1200mm above, include....

Zoom lenses:

Sigma 100-400mm f/5-6.3 OS HSM... $700.
Tamron 150-600mm VC USD (original version, discontinued).... about $800 (used).
Tamron 100-400mm f/4.5-6.3 VC USD (with tripod ring).... about $930.
Sigma 150-600mm OS HSM "Contemporary"... about $1000.
Canon 100-400mm IS USM (original version, discontinued)... $1300 new, $850 used.
Tamron 150-600mm VC USD G2... new version... about $1300.
Nikkor AF-S 200-500mm f/5.6G VR... about $1400.
Sigma 150-600mm OS HSM "Sport"... $1800.
Canon 100-400mm "II" IS USM.... $2000.
Nikkor AI-S 80-400mm VR... $2300.
Sigma 120-300mm f/2.8 OS HSM "Sport" w/matched 2X teleconverter... $3800.
Nikkor AF-S 200-400mm f/4 VR "II".... $7000.
Canon EF 200-400mm f/4L IS USM with built-in/matched 1.4X teleconverter... $11,000.
Nikkor AF-S 180-400mm f/4 VR FL with built-in/matched 1.4X TC... $12,400.

Prime lenses:

Canon 400mm f/5.6L USM (no image stabilization)... $1150.
Nikkor AF-S 300mm f/4 VR: $1350, with Kenko Pro 300 1.4X TC: $140... $1490.
Canon 300mm f/4L IS USM: $1350, with Canon 1.4X teleconverter: $430... $1780.
Nikkor AF-S 300mm f/4 VR PF: $2000, plus Nikon AF-S TC14E III: $500... $2500.

In themselves, for a lot of birding the 300mm lenses aren't long enough... so I'd assume a 1.4X teleconverter would be needed and have indicated the cost of those, where appropriate.

Note: the above cameras can autofocus an effective f/5.6 lens/TC combo, such as an f/4 lens with a 1.4X TC or an f/2.8 lens with a 2X. They cannot autofocus an f/8 combo, such as an f/4 lens with a 2X TC or an f5.6 lens with a 1.4X TC. (Some more advanced camera models are able to AF the latter combos.)

The Sigma and Tamron lenses above are available for both Nikon and Canon cameras. Perhaps it's obvious, but the Nikkors will only work on Nikon cameras, while the Canon lenses will only work on Canon cameras.

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Apr 29, 2018 16:58:34   #
Murray Loc: New Westminster
 
What lenses? The body is fine

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Apr 29, 2018 20:34:51   #
gvarner Loc: Central Oregon Coast
 
ToBoldlyGo wrote:
Technique can not compensate much for slow and innacurate AF on birds in flight. Yes it can be done with manual focus and has been, blah blah blah, but the camera is simply not up to the task of tracking fast moving objects. Now I would love some crazy expensive telephoto primes, they would deliver results. However I compromised on a 200-500, which is far superior to any superzoom camera. My point is that the OP will need to upgrade, but even then there are compromises to be decided on, and if the current equipment isn't up to it, I'm sorry but your advice isn't correct. No offence intended. Sorry if I've rambled a little too.
Technique can not compensate much for slow and inn... (show quote)


No offense taken. I hadn't taken slow focus into account. For that matter, I don't take lots of things into account in my feedback and find out I was dead wrong but that's how I learn too.

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Apr 30, 2018 02:23:52   #
ToBoldlyGo Loc: London U.K.
 
gvarner wrote:
No offense taken. I hadn't taken slow focus into account. For that matter, I don't take lots of things into account in my feedback and find out I was dead wrong but that's how I learn too.


I get you. The only reason I know is I've played with the P900 in the shop a few times. While I'm always tempted by that 2000mm equivalent reach, it's slow to focus compared to a DSLR, and seems worse when zooming in. Rumour has it it's replacement will eventually come out, with even more reach. I'll be tempted all over again😜.

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Apr 30, 2018 11:57:18   #
prcb1949 Loc: Ex Zimbabwe - Now UK
 
CO wrote:
I have the Nikon 70-300mm f/4.5-5.6 AF-S lens and the Nikon 80-400mm f/4.5-5.6 AF-S lens. I use them on a D7000 and D500. I've found that the 70-300mm has difficulty tracking birds in flight. I did successfully photograph a soap box derby race with it once though. It was able to track the cars coming down the hill. I generally have the camera in 3D tracking mode.

The 80-400mm has a superior AF motor. It tracks bird in flight better than the 70-300mm.


CO thanks for your response this will be helpful -

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Apr 30, 2018 12:01:29   #
prcb1949 Loc: Ex Zimbabwe - Now UK
 
Grace98 wrote:
Hi PRCB, I have a D3300 (although am saving like mad to upgrade to the D7500 & get a faster lens) and a Nikkor zoom 18-300 VR 6.3. I have taken many pics of birds in flight..ok have lots of misses and some not as sharp as I want but BIF are not very easy and the AF can be a bit slow sometimes. My friend has a similar camera with a 70-300VR and she's very pleased with it. If your funds are very limited, this would be a good combination to start with....here's an example of what I took recently to give you an idea. Good luck..Grace
Hi PRCB, I have a D3300 (although am saving like m... (show quote)


Thanks you so much Grace for taking the time to show all that you have - I am resisting the urge to simply buy and will only do so when I am happy that all round I am getting as close I can to what I need.

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Apr 30, 2018 12:15:30   #
prcb1949 Loc: Ex Zimbabwe - Now UK
 
amfoto1 wrote:
The D3300 will be fine... It will limit you a little, to what lenses you can use with it. In order to autofocus, the more entry level Nikon cameras require lenses with a built-in motor.... such as AF-S and AF-P. Other lenses without built in motor cannot autofocus on the D3000 and D5000 series cameras. (D5 and D500 you mention can autofocus both types of lenses.... those with motors and those without.)

Teh D3300 is an "APS-C/DX" crop sensor camera, which helps lenses "act longer" than they do on so-called "full frame/FX" camera. That's a good thing for birding!

Now, your P900 has "full frame equivalent 24mm to 2000mm" lens. It's lens focal length range really is nowhere near that... It's actual zoom range is 4.3mm to 357mm. But the camera uses a tiny sensor that makes the lens "act much longer" than it is. The P900's sensor is a 1/2.3" size... which is 4.56mm by 6.17mm, or about 28 square millimeters. The camera has 16 million pixel sites crowded onto that sensor... or well more than a half million, very tiny pixel sites per square millimeter. This significantly limits the camera's imaging capabilities, how high ISO you can use, as well as the quality of images.

The D3300, on the other hand, uses a much larger APS-C/DX sensor. The actual dimensions of it are 15.6mm by 23.7mm.... for a total of about 370 square millimeters (more than 10X the area of the P900's sensor!). The D3300 is a 24MP camera, so that sensor has a little less than 65,000 pixels per square millimeter. This means much larger, much less crowded individual pixel sites than the P900... making for better image quality and much higher usable ISO with the D3300. Yes, the even larger full frame sensor can be even better.... but it also makes for a more expensive camera, as well as bigger and more expensive lenses to use upon it.

am

A crop sensor/DX camera like the D3300 is a good compromise.... much improved IQ compared to your "ultra-zoom, bridge camera", yet still leveraging lens focal length to some extend. The Canon T7 is roughly equivalent to the D3300/D3400. The Nikon D5500 or Canon SL2 or T7i are step up models with some more features that might be important. For example, the step up models have an articulated Touch Screen LCD and self-cleaning sensors, both of which can be very helpful. If you travel a lot with your camera, you might appreciate the Canon SL2 in particular... it's the smallest DSLR currently in production (the 2nd smallest DSLR anyone's ever made... the slightly smaller SL1 is the smallest of all).

But any of these DSLR models will be a solid improvement over your P900 in many respects.

The "problem" will be the lenses you use on any of the DX/APS-C cameras. None of them will give you the equivalent of 2000mm that the P900 lays claim to! Canon made an EF 1200mm lens that would "act like 1920mm" if used upon one of those cameras.... But it's huge, weights 35 lb., is no longer in production and was only ever sold by special order anyway, so is quite rare.... and sells for upwards of $100,000 on the used market! Canon and Nikon both still make an 800mm lens, which will "act like 1200mm" or a little more on these cameras. But that's well short of the "2000mm equivalent" you've been using... and still quite large, heavy and expensive. (Note: The current Nikkor 800mm sells for over $16,000... the Canon is only a little less pricey, at $13,000.)

70-300mm really isn't enough lens for birding. It's better than nothing, but not by much. On a D3300 it will "act like 115-450mm".

Plus, Nikon makes several different 70-300mm. There's a cheap, non-VR, AF-P model that's often bundled with D3000-series cameras, which I'd avoid. It's just not all that great in terms of image quality.... uses slower stepper motor focus drive... plus it lacks image stabilization. It will cost more, but for faster moving subjects... particularly for birds in flight (BIF)... an AF-S focus drive lens with VR would be a better bet (or Canon's USM focus drive and IS lenses).

Even on a crop sensor DSLR, for birding you really need more lens than 70-300mm. At a minimum, 400mm.... But preferably 500mm or 600mm. Coming back down to planet Earth, still not cheap, but more affordable than the 1200mm above, include....

Zoom lenses:

Sigma 100-400mm f/5-6.3 OS HSM... $700.
Tamron 150-600mm VC USD (original version, discontinued).... about $800 (used).
Tamron 100-400mm f/4.5-6.3 VC USD (with tripod ring).... about $930.
Sigma 150-600mm OS HSM "Contemporary"... about $1000.
Canon 100-400mm IS USM (original version, discontinued)... $1300 new, $850 used.
Tamron 150-600mm VC USD G2... new version... about $1300.
Nikkor AF-S 200-500mm f/5.6G VR... about $1400.
Sigma 150-600mm OS HSM "Sport"... $1800.
Canon 100-400mm "II" IS USM.... $2000.
Nikkor AI-S 80-400mm VR... $2300.
Sigma 120-300mm f/2.8 OS HSM "Sport" w/matched 2X teleconverter... $3800.
Nikkor AF-S 200-400mm f/4 VR "II".... $7000.
Canon EF 200-400mm f/4L IS USM with built-in/matched 1.4X teleconverter... $11,000.
Nikkor AF-S 180-400mm f/4 VR FL with built-in/matched 1.4X TC... $12,400.

Prime lenses:

Canon 400mm f/5.6L USM (no image stabilization)... $1150.
Nikkor AF-S 300mm f/4 VR: $1350, with Kenko Pro 300 1.4X TC: $140... $1490.
Canon 300mm f/4L IS USM: $1350, with Canon 1.4X teleconverter: $430... $1780.
Nikkor AF-S 300mm f/4 VR PF: $2000, plus Nikon AF-S TC14E III: $500... $2500.

In themselves, for a lot of birding the 300mm lenses aren't long enough... so I'd assume a 1.4X teleconverter would be needed and have indicated the cost of those, where appropriate.

Note: the above cameras can autofocus an effective f/5.6 lens/TC combo, such as an f/4 lens with a 1.4X TC or an f/2.8 lens with a 2X. They cannot autofocus an f/8 combo, such as an f/4 lens with a 2X TC or an f5.6 lens with a 1.4X TC. (Some more advanced camera models are able to AF the latter combos.)

The Sigma and Tamron lenses above are available for both Nikon and Canon cameras. Perhaps it's obvious, but the Nikkors will only work on Nikon cameras, while the Canon lenses will only work on Canon cameras.
The D3300 will be fine... It will limit you a litt... (show quote)


amfoto, thank you for a very interesting read which along with all the other advice, when I have read all several times- and hopefully properly digest I will make up my mind from there. The p900 has proved to be a useful bit of kit in certain applications but it falls short when faced with the wide range of shooting conditions and circumstances that the bird photographer often encounters. The zoom is without doubt amazing in its power and reach but of no use when taking pics of small birds beyond about 5 meters - (my findings anyway)

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Apr 30, 2018 12:21:02   #
prcb1949 Loc: Ex Zimbabwe - Now UK
 
Gene51 wrote:
You are not going to get much better results with a D3300 and a basic, used 70-300. What will be holding you back will be autofocus performance, and the image quality at 300mm. A better bet would be a Nikkor Nikon 70-300mm f/4.5-6.3G DX VR AF-P. And you are in luck, since it works nicely on the D3300. B and H is listing a refurbished copy of this lens for $140.

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1365791-REG/nikon_20061b_af_p_dx_nikkor_70_300mm.html?ap=y&c3api=1876%2C92051678762%2C%2C&gclid=Cj0KCQjw2pXXBRD5ARIsAIYoEbd_Z1cSTPsrDwXTxiXkeSmLXXCl2fGyrAxdRFET0dlRnqPWT9JqNO4aAgoPEALw_wcB

https://photographylife.com/reviews/nikon-70-300mm-dx-vr-af-p/3

If you have your box, accessories and all that came with the P900, and your camera does not look worn or beat up, you should be able to get between $500 and $600 on eBay for it.

You can get a used D3300 kit with an 18-55 AF-P lens for around $400, so your net out of pocket is probably what you can get for the P900, give or take. The AF-P lenses are worth seeking - they are better than the lenses they replace.
You are not going to get much better results with ... (show quote)


Gene51 thanks will digest as I can thank you for responding


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Apr 30, 2018 12:26:06   #
prcb1949 Loc: Ex Zimbabwe - Now UK
 
gvarner wrote:
The long zoom on that P900 can reach out and touch more birds than most of the zooms you mentioned. I suspect it's more technique than anything. Plus back button focus is a must for birds in flight. Panning with multiple bursts might help with that if you can't BBF.


Thanks

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Apr 30, 2018 13:22:42   #
prcb1949 Loc: Ex Zimbabwe - Now UK
 
Grace98 wrote:
Forgot to mention, these photos are cropped as 300 doesn't have much reach..


Hi Grace - could you advise me off any good outlets that sell second hand/refurbished kit here in the UK ?

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Apr 30, 2018 19:25:48   #
kb6kgx Loc: Simi Valley, CA
 
CO wrote:
I have the Nikon 70-300mm f/4.5-5.6 AF-S lens and the Nikon 80-400mm f/4.5-5.6 AF-S lens. I use them on a D7000 and D500. I've found that the 70-300mm has difficulty tracking birds in flight. I did successfully photograph a soap box derby race with it once though. It was able to track the cars coming down the hill. I generally have the camera in 3D tracking mode.

The 80-400mm has a superior AF motor. It tracks bird in flight better than the 70-300mm.


Sure, it does. It’s also several times more expensive than the 70-300.

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May 1, 2018 12:13:22   #
Grace98 Loc: Waterlooville, Hampshire - United Kingdom
 
Sorry don't know. I bought both the camera and zoom from PC World as they're very local to me. Both Jessops and Camera Exchange have refurbished staff. Have a look at their website. They're both very reputable. You can also try Amazon but do be a bit careful - if it's very cheap it could be a gray market item. My lens was £200 cheaper at Amazon but then discovered the seller is in New York so I decided against it. I've made a lot of research and from reviews and UHH, the D7500 is very good for BIF etc. It's more expensive in the UK than the States. When I get this, I will look for a lens with much better reach. Cropping is ok but there is a limit. There's a Tamron lens I think it's 160-600 which comes highly recommended by UHH but I think it's expensive and won't be looking at the price yet....any more queries, please let me know or PM me. Grace
prcb1949 wrote:
Hi Grace - could you advise me off any good outlets that sell second hand/refurbished kit here in the UK ?

Reply
May 1, 2018 12:25:50   #
prcb1949 Loc: Ex Zimbabwe - Now UK
 
Gene51 wrote:
You are not going to get much better results with a D3300 and a basic, used 70-300. What will be holding you back will be autofocus performance, and the image quality at 300mm. A better bet would be a Nikkor Nikon 70-300mm f/4.5-6.3G DX VR AF-P. And you are in luck, since it works nicely on the D3300. B and H is listing a refurbished copy of this lens for $140.

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1365791-REG/nikon_20061b_af_p_dx_nikkor_70_300mm.html?ap=y&c3api=1876%2C92051678762%2C%2C&gclid=Cj0KCQjw2pXXBRD5ARIsAIYoEbd_Z1cSTPsrDwXTxiXkeSmLXXCl2fGyrAxdRFET0dlRnqPWT9JqNO4aAgoPEALw_wcB

https://photographylife.com/reviews/nikon-70-300mm-dx-vr-af-p/3

If you have your box, accessories and all that came with the P900, and your camera does not look worn or beat up, you should be able to get between $500 and $600 on eBay for it.

You can get a used D3300 kit with an 18-55 AF-P lens for around $400, so your net out of pocket is probably what you can get for the P900, give or take. The AF-P lenses are worth seeking - they are better than the lenses they replace.
You are not going to get much better results with ... (show quote)


Thanks for your advice and the trouble you have taken


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May 1, 2018 12:27:26   #
prcb1949 Loc: Ex Zimbabwe - Now UK
 
If there are any of you who have replied to my request for help that I have not replied in turn to - my apologies.

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