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Why do so many of you save as JPEG instead of TIFF?
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Feb 19, 2018 19:01:37   #
davyboy Loc: Anoka Mn.
 
rehess wrote:
Speak for your self.
JPEG is my final form for everything.

Suppose "raw" were my final form.
I used Canon 2007-2015, which means I would have to support at least one form of CR2.
I currently use Pentax, so I would have to support DNG.
But, then, what would I do with files scanned {I've used three different scanners, but none creates "raw".

I used Photoshop, but then moved to gimp; what if PhotoShop makes changes in PSD??

I could use TIFF, but as I noted earlier, TIFF differs between Win and Mac, and we did use Mac at one time.

No, standardizing on JPEG is simplest.
Speak for your self. br JPEG is my final form for ... (show quote)

Amen brother

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Feb 19, 2018 20:44:10   #
raymondh Loc: Walker, MI
 
I save the RAW files so I guess it doesn't matter.

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Feb 19, 2018 20:44:36   #
PGHphoto Loc: Pittsburgh, PA
 
drklrd wrote:
Are we sure that Jpeg's deteriorate? Files stored on hard drives and never opened never go away or degrade unless you store in the cloud or some place electronically not in your computer. Storage in outside sources do routinely run programs like defrag will cause some degradation because the file may be stored in several different places on your hard drive but then it would have to be run daily to cause any problems. I have never heard of file degradation due to opening a file and then closing it saving the changes. Maybe that was why they couldn't find Hillary's emails (file degradation she opened and closed them too much). Storage outside your computer will cause deterioration as the electronics involved send the file from computer to computer in little data packets that are reassembled at the receiving computer. I use external hard drives until I fill them up and then they rest on a shelf. The only deterioration they get hanging out on a shelf is that the metal and plastic in the drive will age in 10 to 20 years by then you should have a 1000 terra byte drive available that is as small as a thumb drive to transfer all your pics to from the external drives you have accumulated. I know I just got a 5 terra byte drive that is smaller than the 1/2 terra byte drive I have on the shelf holding stored info.
One last thought on deterioration ......
An old print if it had been processed properly might give you 100 years of enjoyment but will the new ink prints do the same? I have prints I made that are over 40 years old and still look good will my ink jet prints hold up as well?
Are we sure that Jpeg's deteriorate? Files stored ... (show quote)


Defragmentation does nothing to degrade any data in any format - text, photos or code. Files written to a hard drive are written in blocks of data. Each block of data points to the subsequent block. All defragmentation does is moves the blocks to be physically 'next to' its previous block and subsequent block. Its easier and quicker to read data if the second block follows the first one. In a book analog, fragmentation would be like reading page 1 and then having to flip forward to the 29th sheet of paper to read page 2. Defragging puts page 1 in front of page 2.

The nature of JPG standard files - by definition - is a method of writing to a hard drive using an algorithm to eliminate and consolidate data. The wiki article says it more concisely than I can : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JPEG . There is support in the jpeg standard that is supposed to produce a 0 compression but in my 30 years of technical IT experience, I have never seen it properly supported by viewing applications since the file will still be 'interpreted' by a viewer and, as such, can still render less then 100% accurately.

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Feb 19, 2018 20:52:26   #
PGHphoto Loc: Pittsburgh, PA
 
Dikdik wrote:
Agreed, but, you have to close the files without saving to maintain the same data or if you save it as a different filename; changes to the file then occur under the new filename. Because it's a 'lossy' format, there are artifacts created when you open the file.

Dik


Sorry - changing a file name never even touches the physical data content unless you open the file and 'save as' to a new name. In that case - as thousands here have correctly asserted - you are saving the file and writing a new file which will be processed under the rules of jpg compression.

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Feb 19, 2018 21:16:57   #
Dikdik Loc: Winnipeg, Canada
 
To clarify... if you have not saved the original file, by saving the file as a different name, the changes occur to the file renamed, and are not carried to the original file. [Added] Renaming a file does not change the contents of the photo data; saving it under a different name changes the contents of the file with the new name.

If you do a checksum, there are half a dozen variants, your original file will still have the same checksum as when it was opened. If you save it as the original filename, without alteration, it will have a different checksum and will likely be marginally smaller. This will happen each time you open the file and save it. I don't know if this happens on loading or on saving the file, but, it does happen.

Do this with a *.tif, or *.png (without any compression) and the checksum will stay the same after loading and saving.

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Feb 19, 2018 21:54:00   #
splatbass Loc: Honolulu
 
I save both. TIFF for potential future editing, JPG for posting online. I also save the RAW in case I want to reinterpret it at a later date, which does happen.

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Feb 19, 2018 22:30:38   #
rehess Loc: South Bend, Indiana, USA
 
Dikdik wrote:
To clarify... if you have not saved the original file, by saving the file as a different name, the changes occur to the file renamed, and are not carried to the original file. [Added] Renaming a file does not change the contents of the photo data; saving it under a different name changes the contents of the file with the new name.

If you do a checksum, there are half a dozen variants, your original file will still have the same checksum as when it was opened. If you save it as the original filename, without alteration, it will have a different checksum and will likely be marginally smaller. This will happen each time you open the file and save it. I don't know if this happens on loading or on saving the file, but, it does happen.

Do this with a *.tif, or *.png (without any compression) and the checksum will stay the same after loading and saving.
To clarify... if you have not saved the original f... (show quote)

None of this is relevant to the Original Post, which talked about 'opening' the file causing the file to be degraded.

You are in agreement with everyone else. Create a JPEG file once you have the final image. It will be written only once, so 'degrading' is not an issue.

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Feb 19, 2018 22:43:14   #
Dikdik Loc: Winnipeg, Canada
 
Disagree... if you do a checksum on the data, the checksum will change unless the file is discarded without saving... If a file is closed, it is often written back to the HDD or whatever and changed.

Dik

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Feb 19, 2018 23:36:39   #
rehess Loc: South Bend, Indiana, USA
 
Dikdik wrote:
Disagree... if you do a checksum on the data, the checksum will change unless the file is discarded without saving... If a file is closed, it is often written back to the HDD or whatever and changed.

Dik

That is the whole issue: only the final version is saved as JPEG; only one write - many reads, but not written back to media.

I am treating JPEGs as slides - except that repeated viewing doesn't do any harm!

The Win photo viewer does not write; the iPhone photo viewer does not write; ad nauseam

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Feb 19, 2018 23:44:12   #
CHG_CANON Loc: the Windy City
 
Dikdik wrote:
Disagree... if you do a checksum on the data, the checksum will change unless the file is discarded without saving... If a file is closed, it is often written back to the HDD or whatever and changed.

Dik

Try using <quote reply> so your response has some context to the person / earlier statements where the response applies.

You're continuing to drive all over the road, only occasionally near some facts ... Using your newest technical tool, try the following:

a) Select any random jpg file and collect the checksum
b) then, simply make a file copy at the operating system to a new name. Note no change to the checksum.
c) then, open either of these test files in a viewer such as Photos on Windows or the similar on Mac. Do a "Save As" of the image to a new (3rd) file name. Check the checksum on this 3rd file. Note no change.

If files were modified by simply making copies or viewing the contents as you've described, we'd never be able to make back-ups and perform system restores, nor file-level recoveries. The original files would have been lost due to the slight changes you keep claiming to exist in the copies ... That is not how it works. I skipped the scenario of checking the checksum before and after opening & closing the same file. Do that one too to disprove If a file is closed, it is often written back to the HDD or whatever and changed.

The issue on saving a JPG comes into play when a tool with a compression engine is invoked. Remember above at (c), even 'save as' from a viewer doesn't trigger a change to the file via a re-compression. Open that JPG in an image editor (PhotoShop / MS Paint / "edit" with MS Photos) and save a new JPG file, even with no changes, now you'll get a new file, new file size and new check-sum.

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Feb 19, 2018 23:51:04   #
Dikdik Loc: Winnipeg, Canada
 
rehess wrote:
That is the whole issue: only the final version is saved as JPEG; only one write - many reads, but not written back to media.


Often when I'm working on a file, I do multiple saves so I don't lose data. I suspect graphics users (I'm not one) do multiple backups...

Quote:
I am treating JPEGs as slides - except that repeated viewing doesn't do any harm!


Strictly as a viewer... then the data is disturbed only once when accessed... unless it is discarded.

Quote:
The Win photo viewer does not write; the iPhone photo viewer does not write; ad nauseam


If the file is opened and saved (unless discarded) the file is changed. JPEG causes changes because it defaults to a data compression engine at heart.

Dik

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Feb 19, 2018 23:53:25   #
Dikdik Loc: Winnipeg, Canada
 
Sorry, I've done that...

Dik

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Feb 20, 2018 00:06:22   #
rehess Loc: South Bend, Indiana, USA
 
Dikdik wrote:
If the file is opened and saved (unless discarded) the file is changed. JPEG causes changes because it defaults to a data compression engine at heart.

Dik

I give up. You insist on a pattern no sane person would follow. You are correct that any person following that insane path would cause harm, but that is true of most actions by an insane person.

I have nothing further to say on this subject.

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Feb 20, 2018 04:31:36   #
Delderby Loc: Derby UK
 
Linda From Maine wrote:
A fallacy: JPEG degrades every time it is oened (and as I was typing, others have posted). Why not do a test and see if you can tell any difference after 20 openings? And why would you open a jpg 20 times anyway?

The reality for most of us is we use jpg's to post online, email and send to bulk printing places such as Costco. There is no need for a tiff, especially if keeping the original file of layered edits - called psd in Photoshop and PS Elements.

There is no need for a rigid either/or - just keep everything if you have the hard drive space!
A fallacy: i JPEG degrades every time it is oened... (show quote)


After opening the JPG, do you save it or do you simply close it? If you save it you will degrade. If you just close it you will not.

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Feb 20, 2018 04:56:11   #
jerryc41 Loc: Catskill Mts of NY
 
Skiextreme2 wrote:
Why do so many of you save as JPEG instead of TIFF? JPEG degrades every time it is opened and TIFF does not (unless you have edited more).

I've also seen many mention that they may have to send a JPEG to a client because that is what they want, yet any printer I've done business with prefers taking TIFF files.

Why would you go through all the effort of using and editing raw images and save them as JPEGs?


Theoretically, a JPEG degrades every time it is opened, modified, and saved. I tried over 100 edits to a photo, and the last one looked as good as the first, so I'm not concerned about degradation.

As for JEPG over TIFF, in my case, it's just habit. JPEGs are much smaller than TIFFs, and I have the raw files if I need them.

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