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Ansel Adams, Group f/64, Manipulation and the History of Photography
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Jan 17, 2018 08:27:41   #
Darkroom317 Loc: Mishawaka, IN
 
LoneRangeFinder wrote:
Regarding the History, I recommend “The History of Photography” by Beaumont Newhall. Perhaps a bit dated as it predates the digital revolution. Copyright 1982. Museum of Modern Art.


I have it. It was the required textbook for History of Photography when I was in college. Seizing the Light is a good book that contains information for the history beyond Newhall's book.

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Jan 17, 2018 08:29:39   #
Jeffcs Loc: Myrtle Beach South Carolina
 
Again Ansel didn’t add clouds or the moon more did he add in the town of Hernandez he enhanced what he had

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Jan 17, 2018 08:30:52   #
Shutterbug57
 
Jeffcs wrote:
Again Ansel didn’t add clouds or the moon more did he add in the town of Hernandez he enhanced what he had


Who said he added clouds?

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Jan 17, 2018 08:30:57   #
Darkroom317 Loc: Mishawaka, IN
 
Shutterbug57 wrote:
I am not clear on what you are saying here. Do you think Adams manipulated photos or not? Your initial statement seems to indicate that you do not, but your conclusion seems to say that he did, just not as much as some others.


My conclusion has more to do with what other photographers did before and after him in the darkroom that was far beyond what he did. It also, has to do that anytime manipulation is mentioned Adams comes up as if he is the only one ever to do anything in the darkroom. This is not meant to diminish him or his work but to provoke discussion of other photographers besides Adams

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Jan 17, 2018 08:39:47   #
Bill Gordon
 
Thank you to E.L. Shapiro and darkroom317 for their thought provoking commentary and ruminations here. Brings back many good memories from 40 years ago when I had my own diy (but perfect) darkroom and was working in 4x5, sucking up everything I could get my hands about Adams, White and the zone system. At times I would spend an uninterrupted 18 - 20 hours in the dim red light. Now I love working in Lightroom and photoshop, mostly for the benefit of slight enhancements to help the eye of the beholder see what I think is the point of the image, but occasionally, and with great satisfaction and joy, to whisk away with content aware fill something that gets in the way of my viewer seeing the meaning or beauty that I see in the cleaner image.

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Jan 17, 2018 09:00:19   #
Shutterbug57
 
Darkroom317 wrote:
My conclusion has more to do with what other photographers did before and after him in the darkroom that was far beyond what he did. It also, has to do that anytime manipulation is mentioned Adams comes up as if he is the only one ever to do anything in the darkroom. This is not meant to diminish him or his work but to provoke discussion of other photographers besides Adams


Got ya. Adams probably comes up because he and, possibly Leibovitz & Geddes, are the only photographers many folks know of. I hear where you are coming from and agree that the Pictoralists & others did much more manipulation. Some folks today also do significant manipulation in the digital darkroom.

I think some of Adams’ work is brilliant - there are a few of his well-known shots that I think are rather pedestrian. THBS, I would have never seen the final Moonrise image from the original print; he did. To borrow a couple of phrases from above in this thread, he pulled a masterpiece out of a snap shot and he reshot that image in the darkroom. It probably would not have been possible to get that shot SOOC, hence the vision part of the brilliance. His technical skills made up the rest of the brilliance.

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Jan 17, 2018 09:13:46   #
Jeffcs Loc: Myrtle Beach South Carolina
 
No he didn’t add anything he printed from his negatives
The point of much of this discussion is when is it computer art and not a pure photograph
See my thoughts earlier in this post
Some people are keeping the “purest” thoughts and are not using PP to add components of the work that weren’t there when the shutter was tripped
While others feel as long as it started in a camera and anything that is added is good
If you look at the PPA rules the print must be “yours” and anything that you do to it must be yours in other words anything in the final print must have come out of your camera you may not pull something from the web to add to your creation
Personally I’m ok with some manipulation but not to the point it couldn’t have come out of the camera than I feel you’ve created computer art

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Jan 17, 2018 09:20:35   #
Ariel
 
The name comes up because one can easily entertain the thought that while it is a carefully nurtured name , it gives
hope to many photography recorders that you to can become well known however mundane your work.

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Jan 17, 2018 09:31:28   #
Shutterbug57
 
Jeffcs wrote:
Personally I’m ok with some manipulation but not to the point it couldn’t have come out of the camera than I feel you’ve created computer art


I am ok with manipulation however you want to do it as long as you are not trying to pass it off as realistic/journalistic. In your opinion, could Adams have gotten the final version of Moonrise out of his camera? I don’t think he could have. The lower clouds were significantly brighter than the moon, the upper clouds were there and he had no way to equalize the lower clouds with the moon while darkening the sky to eliminate the upper clouds while keeping the moon, never mind the foreground adjustment - in camera. Therefore, by your definition, I think Adams created art - which is consistent with what I have noted all along.

I have zero problems with Adams’ approach or what he did. I just think we should not hide from the fact that he manipulated his photos to create visually appealing images - hence art.

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Jan 17, 2018 09:38:02   #
Shutterbug57
 
Ariel wrote:
The name comes up because one can easily entertain the thought that while it is a carefully nurtured name , it gives
hope to many photography recorders that you to can become well known however mundane your work.


Adams also gives us a lesson that regardless of how good your photos/art are/is, without proper business management even the best work will languish.

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Jan 17, 2018 09:38:30   #
Ariel
 
What is this realistic/journalistic nonsense ? Would be interested in your meaning of the words.

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Jan 17, 2018 09:44:49   #
TheDman Loc: USA
 
Jeffcs wrote:
If you look at the PPA rules the print must be “yours” and anything that you do to it must be yours in other words anything in the final print must have come out of your camera you may not pull something from the web to add to your creation


So it's ok if I add a bear into a scene that didn't have a bear, as long as I'm the one who shot the bear photo?

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Jan 17, 2018 09:46:07   #
Ariel
 
Quite so ! and results in people posting this nonsense on manipulation of image .

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Jan 17, 2018 09:57:53   #
al13
 
E.L.. Shapiro wrote:
I am a commercial photographer- that's what I do for a living. I never aspire to become a famous nature or landscape photographer so why, during my student days and early career, make it my business to take in two Ansel Adams workshops and read and study all of his books and also study the work of Minor White and other practitioners of the Zone System. I was not interested in manipulating images beyond reality or creating bizzare special effects not did I feel that every photograph needed to be clinically accurate or or docuimentry in content. I just wanted to take control of the process to the best of my ability so that I could produce whatever kind of imagery that I was interested in producing. There were many great photographers whose work I admired but at the time Adams was one of the few that openly shared his techniques in finite detail in his teachings, classes and books. Some of my favorite photographers were dead, some were simply NOT accessible to young aspiring kids like I was at the time and many of the top professionals liked to keep "secrets" and tended to operate very close to their chests. Some of the "stars" would offer lectures and speeches at camera clubs and associating conventions but the would never get into the technical details and just boast of their sessions or encounters with celebrities or their big assignments but never mention an f/stop, a shutter speed or a process. Adans was the REAL DEAL- he could teach as well as he could shoot! He could certain inspire folks to apply themselves and instill a work ethic in guys like me.

There is so much "mythology" surrounding Adams and many of his contemporaries. I watched him work in his darkroom making prints and photo-murals. There was no trickery, outrageous effects or affectations or out of the box manipulations, just good solid, sound, consistent and repeatable photographic technique and methodology.Yes, there were lots of steps and logical improvements to the process such as pre-soaking of film, careful attention to exposure and relative development, compression and expansion of the tonal range of films and masterful and craftsman-like printing methods. The zone system was nothing more that really understand the gray scale, the charactics of the materials and taking control over what we now call dynamic range or gradation of tone.

So folks...what did I take away from my workshops and reading. I did not go home and back to my studio and adopt the ZONE SYSTEM in every detail. I did however, at the time, place his overlay over my Weston meter's calculator dial to take the zones into consideration. I adopted methods that boiled down to underexposure and over development or overexposure underdevelopment combined with some pre-soaking to facilitate increase or decrease of contrast respectively.

Anyone who is really experienced or knowledgeable in traditional darkroom procedures must realize that routine dodging (holding back) burning in (local) additive exposure during printing), cropping, flashing, and some local use of concentrated developers or bleaches during print processing are not meant to manipulate the theme or content of any image - usually just to bring things into a normal range of detail or to emphasize or subdue varios tonal elements- not to fool anyone or misrepresent anything. There aforementioned procedures should no be confused with radical retouching, airbrushing of prints, montage printing, extreme special effects or purposeful artistic manipulation. Eve if the photographer is after total documentary photographic reproduction of any person place or object, it is not always possible to accomplish that right out of the camera- sometimes things need to be tweaked in the darkroom or nowadays on the computer.

What I learned for Adams, served me well in my black and white work for many years and has also extended into my color and digital processes as well. Even in rather mundane work like creating wedding formal portraits with detail in white gowns and black formal wear. if the negatives or files are made with care and attention to range, print becomes fast and easy. Sometimes industrial work entail shooting machinery in a dark factory or mill and recording detail of equipment that is outside of a window in the same shot. Understanding tonal compression makes that a relatively easy chore. Understand the results obtainable for various kinds of enlarger lamp-housing type such as diffusion, cold light condenser and point light sources was part of the teaching. He worked with a horizontal track mounted 8x10 enlarger for mural work and just about did a dance in the light path to do his burning and dodging- a sight I will never forget and remember fondly!

As for Adam's camera techniques, again, no monkey business- just straight good work! He was a stickler for good clean camera technique careful image management. He made his own lens shades to maximize flare prevention prevention. He would create a shade that was just shot of vignetting and the cut it back- just so. The need for filter is proper panchromatic interpretation was emphasized, multiple meter readings to examine each zone, noting outrageous or trickey!

I never aspired to be an Adams clone or a disciple- I was just sought to learn my trade from a grand master who knew exactly what he was doing and teaching. I never got into to politics of the f/64 group- most of that was before my time. Surprisingly enough, I also loved and studied the work of William Mortensen- the diametric opposite of the Adams school of thought- talk about MANIPULATION!!! i never got into paper negatives but I do get into some soft focus and had a very complete collection of Mortensen kinda texture screen in my long gone black and white darkroom. Nowadays, some of that stuff is still available on the TOPAZ plug in. That would be a good topic for another thread!

Gotta get back to work now- I got a small product shoot and my wife says I have to take out the garbage- some "master photographer" I have become- SEE! Good thing I studied with the best!
I am a commercial photographer- that's what I do f... (show quote)



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Jan 17, 2018 10:02:54   #
jbmauser Loc: Roanoke, VA
 
Thanks all, I find value in these posts. As I try to digest all of this I categorize the information on process for my own understanding as this: TAKING a photograph - all care in achieving a straight photo. MAKING a photograph, Lightroom corrections to Raw. CRAFTING a Photograph - Photoshop. Beyond that are the Painterly effects and others which I feel are more Illustration than Photography.

The various movements in the history of photography have gems that can I pluck and use as I develop my photographers eye and advance my own work. I do not defend or rebuke any works but I do discriminate to my taste. Great thread which provokes thought. Always a good thing. JB

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