Rongnongno Loc: FL

If anyone has any dissent over faith and belief that anyone gets ignored faster than anything on this planet. This alone demonstrates the illness within this group.

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One serious point of contention: the holy spirit.

Many believe that the holy spirit is god. I do not. In the bible the holy spirit is described as a messenger, bearer of gifts. In no place it is named as 'god'. This does not mean the holy spirit is not important, far from it. His role allows christian to 'verify' that god exist and that christ is his son. The holy spirit also helps when in doubt, still because he is the messenger of god.

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The other point of contention: The bible.

The bible is a great book, I describe it as a 'living book'.

Studying the bible or reading it just to read it is all good and great but you need to know what you are really reading...
- A mess of erroneous translations from one idiom to another. Many things simply cannot be translated without distorting the original meaning in order to try to convey something. You are particularly acute aware of this if you speak another language. How many times have you heard or experienced: "This cannot be translated correctly"
- A mess of deliberate changes made to reflect the preferred slant of the moment.
- Deliberate additions made for the same reasons as above.
Add that this has been going on for a few millennia and... How can we trust anything literally??? No one of good faith can.

Then I see the use of the bible as an ax against anyone who does not believe the same way. That is simply wrong especially that at that time only the literal understanding is used, not the spirit behind the bible. As if this was not enough folks who share the same faith feel inadequate when someone sprouts verses after verses and they cannot.

Faith is not about the bible, faith is about god and christ. The bible is a tool that helps reinforce faith but not as a book per say, as a tool for inspiration, guidance and sometime simply peace.

I call the bible a 'living book' because it is indeed a book inspired by god, despite human interventions to modify it. The best approach to the bible, as I have experienced it time and time again it to expect nothing but... after praying the bible will give an answer. Not necessarily the one we expect but the correct answer needed at the moment. No other book or writing does that, regardless of faith.

The result is that I appear as a 'bible hater' or am 'described' as such when it is the opposite. I just despise the way the bible is used. The bible is not a weapon, it is a book of love.

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On communication, another dissenting point...
God speaks all the time, we are just deaf. God speaks thought other folks, some we even do not like. The way god speaks to us is not limited to hearing but addresses all our senses. The key here is just to stay open and not become a rock.

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Religions and leadership schism...

Religion is about control. Group everyone who share a belief into little bottles and close the lid. This is what religion does.

Belief on the other hand is about freedom, about choices, choices that are constant and not tributary to a norm but to faith and growing in that faith.

'Leadership' comes from religion, not from god. Punch a few holes and become a church leader, right.

I do not recognize anyone authority or self appointed right to speak 'for god' or being a 'judge' of someone's faith is. Yet, since these folks can say something that comes from god.

If anything a leader is not one that directs or pleases anyone. A leader is one who is in front regardless of what he/she is leading. A leader does not care to be followed. A leader is a light, someone folks trust instinctively, on their own volition. The same folks will stop the 'emulation' as they grow, same as children are bond to leave their parents, the difference is that children have no choice to start with.

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I almost forget this nugget that makes a few stumble:

The lack of capitalization and my apparent disrespect for god...

Really?

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I have said what I felt I had to in this thread. This does not mean I will stop posting, you are not that lucky.

For those who feel under personal attack, you are not but it is your choice to feel this way.

Now I expect the usual blow-back as well as the disturbed individual who led me to transfer my topics to the attic. Funny thing is, one has created a polite discussion!!!

d3200prime

Antagonize is the goal of the troll,
with bits of half-truths, lies, and
despicable speak he strolls
through the pages of ones mind
only bent on verbal mayhem
with confusion as his aim he gleefully
will claim the utter victory if to him you will
acclaim your differing views and allow him
to remain in your brain; what a shame.
Silence is the bane of the troll
and this he well knows
so when the confrontation arose
the word "Silence" throws the troll
into the pangs of defeat as he well knows.
So goes the troll.

hj Loc: Florida

Well, Rongnongno, I would disagree with your concept that the Holy Spirit is not God. Undoubtedly you've heard of the Holy Trinity.... God the Father, Christ the son and the Holy Spirit.

Crichmond Loc: Loveland, CO

Thank you for artistically exposing the methodology, the intent, and more importantly the solution!

Well written! And much appreciated!

Rongnongno Loc: FL

I not only heard of i, I believed it until I paid attention to what was said.

If you go onto the interpretation that god is every where, the holy spirit does become god but so does a stone or anything else for that matter. The thing is a stone does nothing, the holy spirit on the other has a specific role, that of a messenger for god. I did not find a reference that announce it as part of god yet every time it is mentioned it is as a messenger so...

It becomes a matter of faith and for me honoring the holy spirit as part of god is not part of my faith. I do not pray to it. Neither do you unless you recite the lord prayers which I have doubts about its origin and translation when it comes to the mention the holy spirit.

Note that this engages only me. I am not trying to convince anyone but I share my serious misgiving when it comes to the definition of the holy spirit as god.

Crichmond Loc: Loveland, CO

When the allegation was set forth that the Spirit is not God I immediately thought, “but ‘God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.’" (John 4:24)

And of course there are a plethora of other Scriptures that expressly declare that the Spirit is God. Namely Gen 41:38; Job 27:3; Ps 143:10; Ecc 11:5; Isa 61:1; Dan 4:8-9; Dan 4:18; Dan 5:11; Dan 5:14: Luke 1:31; Rom 8:9; 1 Cor 2:11; 1 Cor 7:40; 1 Cor 12:3; 1 Cor 2:12; 1 Cor 6:19; 1 Cor 12:3; 1 Pet 4:14; 1 John 4:2.

But then I also thought, “’when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth’” (John 16:13)

Which raises the question in my mind, “What is truth?”(John 18:38)

That question is answered in John 17:17, “Sanctify them by Your truth. Your word is truth.” And is corroborated in Psalm 119:160 “The entirety of Your word is truth, And every one of Your righteous judgments endures forever.”

Regarding the question, the Scripture is a weapon: Paul expressly states, “For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal but mighty in God for pulling down strongholds, 5 casting down arguments and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God, bringing every thought into captivity to the obedience of Christ, 6 and being ready to punish all disobedience when your obedience is fulfilled.” (2 Corinthians 10:4-6)

And Hebrews 4:12 says, “For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.”

Therefore, “Stand…, having girded your waist with truth, having put on the breastplate of righteousness, 15 and having shod your feet with the preparation of the gospel of peace; 16 above all, taking the shield of faith with which you will be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked one. 17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God; 18 praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, being watchful to this end with all perseverance and supplication for all the saints.” (Ephesians 6:14-18)

No doubt the enemy of our souls would prefer to disarm us with lies and deceit and treachery, “For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into apostles of Christ. 14 And no wonder! For Satan himself transforms himself into an angel of light. 15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also transform themselves into ministers of righteousness, whose end will be according to their works.” (2 Corinthians 11:13-15)

And finally, Jesus gave us the ultimate example of how to fight spiritual warfare in Luke chapter 4. Each time Satan approached Him, He answered by saying, “It is written.”

Rongnongno Loc: FL

- Where is it demonstrated the the holy spirit IS god?
- Then what is this thing about 'saints'? There are no saints in the bible, just great men doing god's work.
- How about 'the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God'? How does this equate with being god?
- 'whose end will be according to their works...' Does this not imply we have to work to stay saved instead of sitting on our butts?
- “It is written.” Indeed it is. Because of that satan could not do anything. One cannot go against reality even if one tries. There is much more here than a simple reference to the bible.
-“For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.” I have no issue with that, far from it.
- ‘God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.’ And you do not see what is being said and how? God has no 'essence' meaning no physical presence. In that context he is 'spirit', not the 'holy ghost'. 'Worship him in spirit and in truth' what spirit is being mentioned here? That of a christian? What does 'truth' alludes to? We worship in our mind, in spirit and in truth with our faith that does not need the mind but complements it.
- Then you have a statement that appears to go against the grain - it does not - : " “The entirety of Your word is truth, And every one of Your righteous judgments endures forever.” This goes along with no associating with evil. A judgement call on WHAT is evil, not WHO is evil - THAT is reserved for god to decide, not us as individuals.

Thus far, everything you post is true, I will never dispute this. This does not address the holy spirit as being god.

Your use of the bible is justified as you use it with a christian to share your thoughts and faith. The thing is, what you quote just reinforces my belief that the holy spirit is not god but a tool of god. Same as the computers we use to communicate are tools. The difference one is used by the god and the other by us, humans.

What I criticize strongly is the use of the bible as a weapon against folks who could be converted had the weapon not been used incorrectly. Faith has nothing to do with knowledge. The two will always fight each other even within a christian.

Rongnongno Loc: FL

Note to all: I just placed one person on ignore as I do not want this person to interfere in an exchange that may or may not make me change my understanding of the holy spirit.

I will remove the gag when the exchange is over.

Bangee5 Loc: Louisiana

Since when does a 'STONE' need salvation? The Holy Spirit is of God and is God just as Jesus is God. To dishonor the Holy Spirit is to dishonor God and blasphemy against the Holy Spirit which is the Spirit of God so named because God is holy, such blasphemy will not be forgiven. Do you not know that your body is the temple of God which dwells the Holy Spirit of God?

The Bible does teach that God is everywhere (Omnipresence) but it does not say that God is IN everything. God is not in a stone, a tree nor a bee. God is outside of His creation. He can not and is not a part of His creation. To say that God is a part of His creation is to say that God created Himself. Not true.

Trying doing some research instead of depending on your own faulty knowledge of matters that you apparently know nothing about. Study your Bible if you have one and seek the knowledge of the Holy Spirit in your quest to know the Godhead. You just might find Jesus along the way.

The Bible says that whoever believes on Jesus will not be disappointed. You can not work for salvation - grace comes by believing in the one who died on the cross, who imputes His righteousness upon you - having died, was buried and resurrected so that we may be the redeemed of God and have eternal life with Jesus. And that alone is all it takes to be saved.

Who is the Holy Spirit? http://www.gci.org/God/deityHS

Crichmond Loc: Loveland, CO

alabamaboy

I have followed this post from the beginning and not only this post but several others concerning similar topics on the bible, God, etc. posted by this person. I know you mean well but it is fruitless to let this person lead you into an endless circle of answering his questions. He no more wants the truth than the devil wants to be saved. He is full of himself. A god unto himself if you will. Take my advice and do not feed his insatiable quest to confuse, confound and if possible sway you from the truths held dear by every true Christian. His posts have nothing to do with this group. Just read sinatraman's, founder of this group, description of why this group was started and you will see what I mean. This person is what we call a troll. Engage him and you only feed his ostentatious and devious ego. Ignore him and he will fade away when with him we do not play.

Bangee5 Loc: Louisiana

I understand what you are saying and I agree with you whole heartedly but when lies are being said, the truth must follow. Someone else might just read his post and be swayed in his error.

Proverbs 26:12 (NASB)
12 Do you see a man wise in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.

alabamaboy

No problem, go get him!

Rongnongno Loc: FL

So... A stone is not part of the universe and has not been created by god and as such represents god?

I did specify that a stone does nothing compared to the holy spirit. WHO spoke of 'a stone needing salvation' if not you. Where did you find this aberration?

Trouble is, now that I read that, I just realized that a stone does something - if it is not recognized as part of the creation -.

A stone, like everything else is part of god's creation as such it is part of our faith about god being the creator of all things. Just don't go about and worship the thing. Being a representation and a creation of god does not make it a god.

Everything that surrounds us is a proof that god exist - even what man has modified to suit its need, for better or for worse.

Just think about it.

Note: This was my full statement If you go onto the interpretation that god is every where, the holy spirit does become god but so does a stone or anything else for that matter.

Rongnongno Loc: FL

This the alter ego of the other person I placed on ignore earlier. This new avatar will also be placed on ignore for a short while.