rpavich Loc: West Virginia

Since this is a section of the UHH that's for Christians I thought that this would be interesting to you...I know it is to me. I love reading/studying the bible especially in the original languages (as much as my abilities allow)

Many folks just LOVE the passage "John 3:16" for what they think it's saying; they assume it to say that God is offering salvation to all humanity and that any person has the ability to grab that offer.

But is it?

Take a look at this video and see for yourself. I hope that this sparks a nice respectful discussion on the actual text itself and not a flame debate.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tUVeorKy0HM

melismus Loc: Chesapeake Bay Country

Thank you for this link, Bob. People who get tangled up in semantic arguments and fine points in translation from the Greek seem to ignore the fact that it all happened in Aramaic.

I do believe that God loves us all, fully knowing that some will spurn that love. To say that God would deliberately create some who are intrinsically incapable of responding implies a cynical cruel streak that would be beyond the bounds of love.

Hesed,

Paul

rpavich Loc: West Virginia

No they don't because it didn't.

The New Testament was written in Greek and pointing out what it actually means vs what people ASSUME it means isn't a semantic argument...it's just basic exegesis.



You can believe what you want but you'd be going against what God has plainly said in His revelation to us.

Would you like to calmly, rationally discuss it?
Did you actually watch the video entirely?

melismus Loc: Chesapeake Bay Country

Yes, I watched it. I find it tedious.

There is a combative tone in your reply; I am not sure I want to continue.

rpavich Loc: West Virginia

It was a bit tedious I agree but the point was made.

I'm sorry if you find what I wrote combative, I just tried to be direct and not be misunderstood. If you have an issue with what was said and you have good grounds to make the point, then I'm happy to discuss, but if your intent is to just say "I don't believe it because that makes God a tyrant!" or similar then we probably won't get anywhere.
It's up to you how you want to proceed....feelings and opinions or exegesis.

melismus Loc: Chesapeake Bay Country

We who believe in Life Eternal are also aware of our shortcomings. It is only natural to wonder what it takes to gain admission and to ponder who might and might not make the grade. We are also hard-wired for self-preservation: without that, no species would survive. But our Christian commitment calls us to rise above our instincts. "He who would save his life will lose it..." means exactly what it says. The ticket to Heaven is bought by self-abandonment. Any effort to get there is inherently selfish and therefore counterproductive.

God is Love, and He asks of us only that we learn and practice that Love. God, the Creator of Space and Time, is not plodding through time with us and wondering what will happen next. The best vision we can grasp is that from the perspective of Eternity, all of Space/Time is one vast panorama-- an eternal Now. If our illusions tell us that some are chosen and some refused, in this perspective the reality is that God has the eternal knowledge of who will believe and who will deny. The choice is ours.

rpavich Loc: West Virginia

If you mean sin, then yes. It's helpful to use biblical language instead of making new terms up.

It's sin. We are under God's wrath until He saves us.



No it isn't. The natural man doesn't give a crap about this subject, however God has made it plain who will be saved. Those who call upon the name of the Lord will be saved. God has chosen an elect people for Himself before the foundation of the world and He is a perfect savior. He will lose none of all He intends to save.

That's also in the bible.



There is no "ticket to heaven" which entirely misses the point. If we are thinking about how we "get there" then we are still idolators; we think that God rewards people who do the right things.

If God saves anyone, He's infinitely merciful and good because all are deserving of Hell. Any idea of a "ticket to heaven" is selfish.




You really should crack that bible once in a while. God is vengeful, jealous, angry, and yes, good too and He COMMANDS us to repent and believe the gospel. He COMMANDS us to do certain things. He is the Omniscient, Omnipresent, Creator-God who doesn't ASK anything but REQUIRES things of His creatures.



I heartily agree...because God has ordained all that happens in creation. All things. Even our belief or non-belief. That's biblical too.



Wow...what a complete load of hogwash.

It's not an illusion; God has chosen to speak to His people via the bible and He made it plain that some are chosen and some are not. He did this to glorify Himself and to show his power, wrath and mercy.


When I said "do you want to discuss it?" I meant specific points about specific passages like in the video...not a bunch of person beliefs with no basis in scripture...that's not worth anything. The ONLY thing that matters is "What did God say?"

melismus Loc: Chesapeake Bay Country

You see a wrathful God; I see a loving God. I think I am happier than you are.

Peace be with you.

melismus Loc: Chesapeake Bay Country

BTW I expected this thread would run several pages. Disappointed that it was a dialog.

rpavich Loc: West Virginia

I see what the bible says...not what I wish God was like. That's the difference. I'm VERY happy! I LOVE God!!! I don't need to make up a pretend-God to be happy. I can love the actual real God that has revealed Himself through scripture.

It's not about how happy we are...it's about honoring God by being accurate with what He's revealed about Himself.

rpavich Loc: West Virginia

I'm also disappointed. I expected some in-depth (or somewhat in-depth) comments directly related to John's use of the phrase "pas ho Pisteown" and the idea that God spreads salvation around like peanut butter.

I'm more than happy to discuss the actual text of the bible, but not feelings or idols.

Crichmond Loc: Loveland, CO

At first blush I thought it was a discussion on whosoever versus whoever versus everyone versus all. But after listening to the speaker a second time I understood him to be arguing instead for a theology he called the “Electing grace of God.”

So, in a nutshell, the video is about Calvinism versus non-Calvinism, and not a linguistic discussion.

A quick summary of various English translations are:

John 3:16 (Concordant Literal Translation)
“For thus God loves the world, so that He gives His only-begotten Son, that everyone who is believing in Him should not be perishing, but may be having life eonian.”

John 3:16 (YLT)
“for God did so love the world, that His Son--the only begotten--He gave, that everyone who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life age-during.” Young’s Literal Translation

John 3:14 (WuestNT)
“For in such a manner did God love the world, insomuch that His Son, the uniquely-begotten One, He gave, in order that everyone who places his trust in Him may not perish but may be having life eternal.” Wuest Translation

John 3:16 (KJV)
“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.” KJV

And the ranges of translations of that phrase are:

• “everyone who is believing” (CLT & YLT)
• “everyone who places his trust” (Wuest)
• “whosoever believeth” (KJV)

I see little difference between “Every single person who believes” versus “Whosoever believes.”

It simply falls to which ever camp you happen to be in, and which set of colored glasses are being worn as to how an individual understands the phrase “pas ho pisteuon.”

A Calvinist sees it one way and the non-Calvinist another.

But I also find it intriguing that neither camp mentions Matthew 15:24 where Jesus says, “I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.” Which the record shows the apostles practiced as seen in Matthew 10:5-6; “These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”

I believe the house of Israel neither includes the Calvinist or the non-Calvinist.

Just food for thought.

rpavich Loc: West Virginia

He's arguing against the assumption of what "whosoever" means in english using the actual greek text.




It's a video about what the text actually says.




If that's what you got out of it you missed the point completely. Utterly missed by a mile.



Actually not at all. The phrase means what it means, if a person chooses to inject a foreign meaning into it to make it mean something it doesn't...that's what the video is explaining.



True. However that doesn't address the question of who's handling the text correctly.



What in the world does this have to do with the video? Neither mentions it because it's not relevant to the discussion?

The fact is; those whom God chose as His elect people will be saved...Jew or Gentile.

Crichmond Loc: Loveland, CO

Just stating my opinion - nothing more nothing less.

I guess we can agree to disagree, but I doubt that you will even concede to that.

I’m with melismus and am disappointed with the dialog.

Blessings to you.

rpavich Loc: West Virginia

You know what opinions are worth...

We do disagree and it IS disappointing that neither of you take the text of scripture seriously enough to make sure your exegesis is sound. I am VERY disappointed that both responses have been so far off the mark, I had hoped for some good interaction based on the texts and the points made in the video specifically.

I'd have LOVED to talk about how John uses the phrase "pas ho + participle" and things of that nature. I'd have LOVED to talk about what passages DO address who is save and on what basis...that would have been awesome!

So yes, I'm disappointed also.