Correct me if I'm wrong
Oct 4, 2017 23:15:11 #
I'm taking basic photography course with my girlfriend at the local community college. She is just getting started so I took the class with her.
The instructor said he saw someone in an outdoor shoot with the flash pointed up and said the flash was useless because none of the light from the flash would hit the subject.
I disagreed with him and said that a small amount of flash would hit the subject.
He said that was incorrect because light traveled in a straight line. At that point I became quiet because I'm trying not to make a know it all out of myself and make him look bad in front of the newbies.
Yes light travels in straight lines but in all directions. That's why photographers use snoots and barn doors. Right?
And that's why Neil Van Niekirk uses the black foam thing when bouncing flash.
Am I right or wrong?
I mean a strobe unit is not like a flash light and even a flash light has some spill over.
The instructor said he saw someone in an outdoor shoot with the flash pointed up and said the flash was useless because none of the light from the flash would hit the subject.
I disagreed with him and said that a small amount of flash would hit the subject.
He said that was incorrect because light traveled in a straight line. At that point I became quiet because I'm trying not to make a know it all out of myself and make him look bad in front of the newbies.
Yes light travels in straight lines but in all directions. That's why photographers use snoots and barn doors. Right?
And that's why Neil Van Niekirk uses the black foam thing when bouncing flash.
Am I right or wrong?
I mean a strobe unit is not like a flash light and even a flash light has some spill over.
Oct 4, 2017 23:21:13 #
Depends how far away the object was that was being photographed. I always find it amusing at concerts when someone uses a flash from 100 feet away then wonders why the heads in front of them are bleached white and the stage in virtual darkness 
Oct 4, 2017 23:21:51 #
Was the flash firing?
Light from a speedlight is pretty directional.
The fresnel lens in the flash helps keep the beam tighter than just a bare bulb.
If it was pointed straight up with no other kind of modifier, and not bouncing off of anything, it was useless.
One possibility though, some flashes can be used as transmitters for remote speedlights. Maybe there was another light the teacher didn't see? I have 2 Nikon SB5000 flashes that have radio transmitter/receivers in them.
Light from a speedlight is pretty directional.
The fresnel lens in the flash helps keep the beam tighter than just a bare bulb.
If it was pointed straight up with no other kind of modifier, and not bouncing off of anything, it was useless.
One possibility though, some flashes can be used as transmitters for remote speedlights. Maybe there was another light the teacher didn't see? I have 2 Nikon SB5000 flashes that have radio transmitter/receivers in them.
Oct 4, 2017 23:23:44 #
Where was the object being photographed though, in relation to the flash, above or in front?
Oct 4, 2017 23:24:44 #
PaulG wrote:
Where was the object being photographed though, in relation to the flash, above or in front?
In front
Oct 4, 2017 23:39:02 #
cyclespeed
Loc: Calgary, Alberta Canada
Wow good for you for backing down and remaining mute on the subject. It is so hard not to want to argue a point when you have genuine interest in expressing a fact you know to be true and not a D. Trump style alternate truth.
I see it as both of you have grey shades of correctness. So little of the light would be coming out at 90 degrees that for practical purposes the instructor is correct. However, a very small amount would be reflected / refracted and thus come out at 90 degrees. Just not enough to be used as an affective addition to the lighting on hand.
To test this, set up on a dark night no stars no man made light sources, pitch dark as they say. Have camera with flash pointed straight up. Next at the same height as the camera with flash have a second camera take a bulb exposure directed parallel to ground 100%, horizontal as it were, aimed at a mirror placed so both this recording camera and the one with the flash attached are reflected in it, should there be any light to do so. Now fire the bulb camera, next fire the flash attached camera, then stop the camera with the bulb exposure. Check to see if there is any light recorded on the recording camera ( bulb setting ) I found a very small amount is recorded but not enough to illuminate the recording camera or anything else.
Very good question you asked. Furthermore if the mirror was placed far enough away as mentioned earlier no light would be discerned I do believe.
I see it as both of you have grey shades of correctness. So little of the light would be coming out at 90 degrees that for practical purposes the instructor is correct. However, a very small amount would be reflected / refracted and thus come out at 90 degrees. Just not enough to be used as an affective addition to the lighting on hand.
To test this, set up on a dark night no stars no man made light sources, pitch dark as they say. Have camera with flash pointed straight up. Next at the same height as the camera with flash have a second camera take a bulb exposure directed parallel to ground 100%, horizontal as it were, aimed at a mirror placed so both this recording camera and the one with the flash attached are reflected in it, should there be any light to do so. Now fire the bulb camera, next fire the flash attached camera, then stop the camera with the bulb exposure. Check to see if there is any light recorded on the recording camera ( bulb setting ) I found a very small amount is recorded but not enough to illuminate the recording camera or anything else.
Very good question you asked. Furthermore if the mirror was placed far enough away as mentioned earlier no light would be discerned I do believe.
Oct 4, 2017 23:42:23 #
cyclespeed wrote:
Wow good for you for backing down and remaining mu... (show quote)
Do you think there would be enough light reflected to make a catch light in the eyes?
Oct 5, 2017 00:01:27 #
fotoman150 wrote:
I'm taking basic photography course with my girlfr... (show quote)
I know which video you are referring to from Neil Van Niekirk. Remember he was performing that in an indoor environment. I'd suggest you review that video again and see the angle he has the flash head. He did provide examples in the video to illustrate his case. If you have a flash to experiment with, why not see if you can replicate the same results. As to catch-lights, why not perform that experiment as well. I do know that my Canon Ex-600 RT has a pull out flash card for catch-lights. I have used it before and it seems to accentuate light in the eyes.
Here's the video:
https://neilvn.com/tangents/about/black-foamie-thing/
Oct 5, 2017 00:01:46 #
In an out-of-door environment, it is unlikely, with an on-camera flash or speedlight aimed directly upward, that any usable or detectable light would strike the subject.
If, however, the good professor was not observant and did not notice if perhaps the "offending" photographer had a small retractable or removable fill card in place which would have redirected a bit of light forward to provide a "wink" of fill. Could be!
Another guess- Some photographers employ "partial bounce" for fill in out of door situations. If that were the case the flash unit would have been tilted upward at about 45 degrees. This would provide a fill source from the "feather" edge of the beam. If one does not look carefully it may have seemed that the flash was aimed straight up.
Guess # 3- Some flash units have removable reflectors which enable bare bulb operation in hic case a goodly quantity of light would strike the subject.
OR? Sometimes when I am shooting out of doors I decide to do a shot with flash fill and one without. To save time, I would just flip the speedlight upward for the non-filled exposure.
When working indoors, most bounce methods depend on light reflecting off walls and ceilings. Even walls that are not in close proximity to the subject or vaulted ceilings could make any attempted bounce technique less than effective. Many light modifiers are kinda "built in" bounce surfaces or diffusion devices or combinations of both.
I don't know what point the teacher wanted to make besides the fact that bouncing light off the "sky" won't work. Anyway, it's not nice to make fun of novice photographers making rookie mistakes or misinterpreting what they may have heard about indirect lighting.
Oh- this is far fetched but maybe the photographer had a radio-triggered off camera flash in play and was just using his his on-camera unit for triggering. I do that!
It's not uncommon, when attending a night baseball game or a concert under the stars, to see folks trying to illuminate a stadium with a little speedlight- in the olden days, they used "flashcubes".
Come on y'all give a guy the benefit of the doubt!
If, however, the good professor was not observant and did not notice if perhaps the "offending" photographer had a small retractable or removable fill card in place which would have redirected a bit of light forward to provide a "wink" of fill. Could be!
Another guess- Some photographers employ "partial bounce" for fill in out of door situations. If that were the case the flash unit would have been tilted upward at about 45 degrees. This would provide a fill source from the "feather" edge of the beam. If one does not look carefully it may have seemed that the flash was aimed straight up.
Guess # 3- Some flash units have removable reflectors which enable bare bulb operation in hic case a goodly quantity of light would strike the subject.
OR? Sometimes when I am shooting out of doors I decide to do a shot with flash fill and one without. To save time, I would just flip the speedlight upward for the non-filled exposure.
When working indoors, most bounce methods depend on light reflecting off walls and ceilings. Even walls that are not in close proximity to the subject or vaulted ceilings could make any attempted bounce technique less than effective. Many light modifiers are kinda "built in" bounce surfaces or diffusion devices or combinations of both.
I don't know what point the teacher wanted to make besides the fact that bouncing light off the "sky" won't work. Anyway, it's not nice to make fun of novice photographers making rookie mistakes or misinterpreting what they may have heard about indirect lighting.
Oh- this is far fetched but maybe the photographer had a radio-triggered off camera flash in play and was just using his his on-camera unit for triggering. I do that!
It's not uncommon, when attending a night baseball game or a concert under the stars, to see folks trying to illuminate a stadium with a little speedlight- in the olden days, they used "flashcubes".
Come on y'all give a guy the benefit of the doubt!
Oct 5, 2017 00:03:19 #
fotoman150 wrote:
Do you think there would be enough light reflected to make a catch light in the eyes?
If the bounce panel was slid up, yes, that can happen, but we don't know that it was. All we know is the flash was aimed straight up.
Oct 5, 2017 00:14:09 #
E.L.. Shapiro wrote:
In an out-of-door environment, it is unlikely, wit... (show quote)
Tomorrow I'm going to do an experiment to see if I can make a catch flight in my girlfriends eyes while pointing the speed like straight up outdoors.
Oct 5, 2017 01:05:12 #
fotoman150 wrote:
Do you think there would be enough light reflected to make a catch light in the eyes?
No. The light being reflected and diffused (the whole point of bouncing) this will not happen.
When one uses bounce light it is an angle, never vertical. There are important trade offs the two main being a significant loss of light the second is the potential for a shift in color balance due to the reflective surface. The advantage is a soft light vs the harsh light and shadows of a flash close to the lens (and potential red eyes).
Oct 5, 2017 01:06:29 #
fotoman150 wrote:
Tomorrow I'm going to do an experiment to see if I can make a catch flight in my girlfriends eyes while pointing the speed like straight up outdoors.
No need to test anything. Outdoor? Where do you think your flash will go and bounce from what? This makes no sense.
Oct 5, 2017 01:17:52 #
Rongnongno wrote:
No need to test anything. Outdoor? Where do you think your flash will go and bounce from what? This makes no sense.
No it doesn't bounce. It comes directly from the flash at a 90 degree angle. At least that's what I am theorizing.
It may have something to do with the diffuser that's built in to the lens. Not the one you pull out and over. I mean he little lines in the lens that diffuse the light.
Oct 5, 2017 01:24:16 #
fotoman150 wrote:
No it doesn't bounce. It comes directly from the flash at a 90 degree angle. At least that's what I am theorizing.
It may have something to do with the diffuser that's built in to the lens. Not the one you pull out and over. I mean he little lines in the lens that diffuse the light.
It may have something to do with the diffuser that's built in to the lens. Not the one you pull out and over. I mean he little lines in the lens that diffuse the light.
If what you are saying is true then the light would come out like a rush of water. Straight out. But the light spreads outward from the end of the flash. This is why you can put a white card at the back of the flash head and reflect some of the light from the spillover in the back forward to the subject. If the light went straight up, the card would reflect nothing.
Right or wrong?
Turn the white card around and put it on the front of the flash. Would forward light be reflected back toward the photographer? You bet it would. Where's the light coming from? From the spillover. The light doesn't shoot straight out. It bursts in all directions from left all the way over to the right.
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