digit-up Loc: Flushing, Michigan

You are absolutely right, in time there will be no need to drive or learn anything about PHOTOGRAPHY. That time is "UPON MY DEATH" I once knew a woodworker that was just a fantastic cabinet maker, as well. He made such WONDERFULLY beautiful cabinetry... In fact, his caskets were just "TO DIE FOR.. Then there was this Very lucky FISHERMAN,,, WOW!! he married a woman who had WORMS. I thought it was TIME-TO-lighten-up!! RJM. I made up the joke about the cabinet maker, but I'm NOT a comedian......not a photographer either, but I love the Hobby. RJM

digit-up Loc: Flushing, Michigan

Some do, some have no intelligence of any kind, JUST TATTOOS! lol

TheDman Loc: USA

Great, then create a luminosity mask in the darkroom based on a multiplication of the red and green color channels, surface blur that mask, and add a pale yellow to it in the soft light blend mode. Then, mask out parts of that adjustment that you don't want. I'll wait while you try to figure out what in the world I just said.

charles tabb Loc: Richmond VA.

Dalek wrote:
"I cut my own grass but I am not a gardener
I grow my own orchids but I am not a horticulturalist
I trim my own trees but I am not an arborist
I fixed my toilet but I am not a plumber
I built a rock wall but I am not a mason
I drive a 380 hp sports car but am not a race car driver
I take pictures and print digitally but I am not a photographer
So what am I, a tinkerer to some a master of none"

E.L.. Shapiro Loc: Ottawa, Ontario Canada

After 14 pages of this topic, I doubt if anyone is gonna read this but I will post in anyway.

Nothing bad has happened to photography. Like many other arts, crafts, professions, trades and hobbies photography has progressed into the technological age. This ongoing argument, over the decades, whether or not photography real art is kind old and silly. In the hands of a talented artist, it is an art. In the hands of a craftsman, it is a craft, in the hands of a savvy professional it is a viable, serious and lucrative profession or trade and it one hell of a fun hobby for all to enjoy at any level. Y'all photography snobs and so called purists- get over yourselves!

Stop worrying about what Ansil Adams, Mathew Brady, and William Fox Talbot all did. OK- they are my idols and heroes too but they are all dead and y'all are still here. Enjoy the history and take encouragement and inspiration for from work of all the masters of yore- read their books and study their imagery before you go to bed at night but during the day, pick up your cameras and do some photography.

Pining for the wet darkroom days is false nostalgia, at least for me. Look folks, I have been posting here for a few years and I have never made much of my credentials as a professional photographer- I don't like to boast, but I can tell you that I spent a good part of my life in a conventional chemical/silver darkroom. My colleagues, coworkers, peers, enemies and competitors considered me as a "MASTER PRINTER" and darkroom technician. I am a walking Photo-Lab-Index- if anyone remembers that tome of a reference book. My friends used to joke that "Ed can make a salon print on toilet paper, developed on chicken soup"!

Cropping, dodging and burning? Y'all call that manipulation? That's the tip of the darkroom iceberg. How about scratch mixing and altering both film and paper developers, flashing, bleaching, rubbing in concentrated developers, pre-soaking film and paper, using reducers and intensifiers, desensitizing and inspection development of film, self masking pyro film developers, making paper negatives, solarizations, posterizations, litho overlays, texture screening, 20 different kids of image toners, endless brands, types, contrast grades, surface textures and sizes of printing papers and much more!

The darkroom was "defect, accident, disaster and mistake HELL"! Every darkroom manual worth its price had endless detailed lists of horrible mess-ups that could happen to even the best of operators: Pin holes, air bells, stains of every type and color, reticulation, scratches, emulsion swelling, water-soak, agitation marks and streaks, fingerprints, deposits caused by impurities in the water, image tone changes from heat drying, drying down, clam-shell marks of ferrotyped glossy prints, edge curl, safelight fog, dichroic fog, over and under development, unexpected temperature fluctuations, chemical contamination and oxidation and more. Oh- and there were more chemicals and remedies for most of theses issues. Hey- and don't accidentally turn on the lights or open the refrigerator! Things like that have been known to happen! I screwed all of the light bulbs out of their sockets!

Let's not even talk about fumes, acid and alkali burns and irritations, contact dermatitis and toner that smells like rotten eggs and we haven't even left the black and white darkroom and walked into the color lab yet! Mess-up prevention and QC testing was a full-time job in itself. It boils down to the fact that your film and paper was in constant peril from the first dip of the film in the developing tank to the final trip of the print through the print dryer. If you are careful, fastidious, and well disciplined, everything should go well of you are fortunate enough not to suffocate or burn one of you fingers off with concentrated stop bath!

Believe me- after many moons in the darkroom you do become a more careful photographer. You don't want to have to manipulate the hell out of every shot because you have enough to do just to keep normal negatives flowing through the system. In professional work where you may have to produce a goodly quantity of prints each day, meet deadlines and keep production costs down, sloppy shooting and endless remedial work is not a good scenario. The very same philosophy, more or less, applies to digital photography.

Perhaps I miss some of the old materials and processes and their very special "look" but I can now replicate just about anything I did in the olden days in digital photography and without all the fuss and muss. Every method of image management is available to me at the camera and at the computer screen including just about everything that was involved in the zone system, perspective control, and even an array of special effects when required. Retouching and enhancement is now more of an intrinsic part and parcel of the post processing routine as opposed to an auxiliary procedure and that is very advantageous when theses components are required.

There is no doubt that good photography is a balanced combination of attention to detail in camera work and finely honed post processing procedures. Whether you work in a wet darkroom or on a computer, the earmark of a good print or screen or projected image lies in whatever manipulations that have been applied are "invisible" and do not call attention to themselves.

I am glad that I had the opportunity and experience to work with non-automated basic cameras, lighting equipment and analog darkroom gear. It's not a "I trudged to school barefoot in snowstorms" kinda thing- it's just that it gives one perspective and insight into and appreciation of our latest technologies and the basis of how they work. I don't think all of this technology makes for lazy photographers, it just makes it easier for enthusiastic and hard-working photographers to concentrate on their art while spending less time worrying about or fumbling with their gear.

PS- I just parted with my last enlarger. I did hold on to my old darkroom and operated it occasionally over the last number of years. This, however, became impractical as time went on. I can mix my own scratch chemistry but I can't manufacture paper and film. Most of my favorites are all gone. Most of my commercial clients require digital media and very rapid delivery. The production of fine portraits, in color and black and white, is still possible with multi-ink printers and premium finishing techniques.

jrh1354 Loc: Dayton, Ohio

Quote "Believe me- after many moons in the darkroom you do become a more careful photographer." I think you just put our concern into your own words. As much as I enjoyed spending half a day in my darkroom, I can't really mourn it's passing. I see too many "photographers" shooting in continuous mode hoping they will get a useful picture. And smart-phones have turned everyone into "photographers". In the film world, you had to really learn the craft to produce acceptable photos. Of course there still are photographers who understand the need to learn the craft. And, yes, digital cameras and photo-retouching software can produce incredible results.

This has been a very interesting and important discussion. It's why I continue to follow UHH every day.

SusanFromVermont Loc: Southwest corner of Vermont

Your description of your experiences in photography is very enlightening. So many people seem to yearn for the "good old days", when those good days are now! Those people are in danger of becoming "old relics" by holding on to things that have gone, except in the sense of museum pieces. Apparently you started out as a "pioneer" and are still forging ahead!

adamsg Loc: Chubbuck, ID

Well said, sir!!

canon Lee

Life is changing. Things evolve. An old idea becomes a new great idea. Photography is better for everyone now a days, due to upgraded technology. Dick Tracy had a radio instead of a watch, star-wars had flip phones, carry a computer in your pocket, all pointing to the future. Lets face it, what we labored to learn is no longer used. We have cars that don't use gas, automatic transmissions, & park themselves. Rear view mirrors will soon be a thing of the past. NOW no need learn to drive, just type into an on board computer. Everyone will be a pro photographer.

rehess Loc: South Bend, Indiana, USA

Who is going to pay them???

Ed Commons

I started learning photography in 1966 in the Air Base Photography shop. I got the bug. I didn't jump into digital right away. I eased into it with point and shoot, and finally laid down some dollars for a Digital SLR. But I didn't throw away what I had learned with film and about framing, and exposure and wanting the picture to come out perfect each time (they didn't even with digital)
I purposely do some throwaway shots. But I can now see them before throwing away.

Ok, now it's no harsh smell chemicals, that have to be mixed and thrown away (probably not an environmentally correct thing to do.) No longer do I have to get out an eight pound slide projector and big screen to bore my friends. ( I can now do that with an Ipad)

And, I still use my Weston Model 5 and shoot in manual mode occasionally. The fact is, digital is easier to work with and offers me new opportunities to be creative. Now I get better shots, because I can see what I did wrong or missed and correct on the spot, saving me driving another 100 miles back to retake the shot, probably under different conditions. You don't give up your ability to be a creative photographer by switching to digital, you can be even more creative.

10MPlayer Loc: California

Back when I had my own darkroom I often took a paint brush and touchup paint and touched up dust spots on my negatives. Once or twice I even painted out some object I didn't want in the picture. It's all the same now only a lot easier and non-destructive. You can make those changes to your 'negatives' without actually making it permanent. Photography is the same if it's digital or film. It's about he subject, lighting and composition. The tools are better now. That's the only difference.

wj cody Loc: springfield illinois

not interested in what you have said, and not interested in manipulation of red/green colour chanels - perhaps you should study photography and obtain better results without resorting to precious adjustments.

TheDman Loc: USA

But I thought you could make infinite adjustments in the darkroom? First one I ask you to make and your eyes glaze over. Looks like the darkroom can't do all you claim.

wj cody Loc: springfield illinois

once again - i've no interest in colour, only black and white.