jaysnave Loc: Central Ohio

I am seeking some noggin nudger advise from this group. I have touched on this in some past discussions, but have failed to make any progress. Here is the deal. I am doing a lot of events. Weddings now and then, but company celebrations, corporate pics, and even documented a parade last Saturday for a group of Vietnam vets who were the grand marshals. I love doing the events and clients love the pics, however here is how I deliver them.

In time I will get them a flash drive with pics and a slideshow. To get something right away I binge edit and upload to my Smugmug page. It is not the professional version where I can set prices etc... I can set a password, but usually don't. The clients go there and download away. This seems to work, however I feel that I should upgrade to a more professional version of Smugmug or go with another site like Shootproof where I could set prices for downloads and or prints with the lab of my choice. I am hesitant to make a change because I want to make sure I am making the best choice.

What do you folks use and what type of end product delivery techniques do you use? I know Bob and a few others print on site and that may be the next step. I am really looking to refine the online thing first. I do have a standard website and a Facebook page also which makes it more convoluted. They do not get much traffic probably because I am always sending links to my Smugmug site.

bkyser Loc: Fly over country in Indiana

For portraits, you have to do in person sales if you want to make any money at all.

For events, it's a completely different animal. I've been slowly improving the system to the point where I'm actually getting orders online. I used to get a few views, but not a lot of actual money coming in.

I do use shootproof.com. What I like is that I can use the free plan until I have a big event like the Marathon I will be having coming up soon, or another big event where there will be a ton of photos. This isn't foolproof yet, but getting better, there is one piece of the puzzle that I need to work out, for races, I'm still trying to find a "facial recognition" type program that would read bib numbers instead of faces, so I could sort by runner... but I digress.

First.....well before the event, I set up a gallery and get the link address. (easy, it's generated automatically)
Then I use a free QR code generator online to generate the QR code that people can use with their smartphones. I then make small strips of paper that have my logo, a message about "want to see and enjoy the photos of _____ (the race, etc)? behind that I have the QR code with the shootproof address of the gallery under it. If someone doesn't have a smart phone, or a QR code reader on their smartphone, then they can still do it "the old fashioned way" I print like 5 to a page, and sit in front of the TV and cut the strips in advance, and give them to the organizer of the event to hand out with the tickets, or in this case... the race packets. I don't mention "buy" photos, just "want to see." I figure most people get that they can buy them if the like, but they don't want to go somewhere that "expects" them to purchase. Lastly, there is a note that says the photos will be available for viewing for 30 days. This is because I want to cancel my higher plan for shootproof, and only pay the $10 or $20 for one month, then go back to free.

I shoot the event. (depends on the event, but I do my best to get as many faces as possible...people don't buy a "I think that's me" photo) If I see something special, I will take the image, but if it doesn't include a face, I normally just take a pass on it.

I download the photos and do as little PP as humanly possible. This is where you don't want to have to "fix" a few thousand photos.

Then, it's time to upload. It isn't until I am ready to upload that I change my account to a paid plan, based on how many photos. For a smaller event, the $10 per month covers it. For a marathon with maybe over 1000 runners, I may have to do the $20/month plan.

When you set up a shootproof account, you can choose to watermark your images, (I do, because people will just screenshot the images), and set the price for each download (people will cringe, but I've done a LOT of races, and in my area $3 each is the magic number. More than that, and people just won't do it. Nobody ever orders prints from an event. That's why I charge what I do up front. I did try 2x to do it thinking I'd get a ton of orders online.... nope... just doesn't happen. A lot of people have family taking photos there too, so you need to be in the best location, and get the best shots. If I sell $100 worth of digitals, I'm happy. I actually make sure that I charge enough up front, that I'm happy if I sell $3 worth of digitals. That's another reason that I don't take any time with PP. I have the box checked that people can crop their own images, and I batch process the photos in lightroom for color and exposure.

I try to upload the day after the shoot, so that also tells you that with 2000 images, I'm not messing with anything other than dumping anything blurry, and batch processing to touch up something like toning down the highlights in a certain location.

When you upload, you also get to put in the expiration date. I put that in my calendar, and delete the event photos on the day it expires, and change my plan. If you forget and it goes over, they will not give you the money back, but they will give you prorated credit towards the next time you do an event.

All in all, their plans are affordable, and you don't have to pay when you don't have events, just change the plan. You can change it every day if you want... I've had to use their customer support, and they've been pretty easy going with me, and I'm not the most computer savvy person in the world.

What I don't do is stuff that I could do one on one. I don't do high pressure sales, but more times than not, if you aren't sitting with someone face to face, they will want to think about it, and maybe never make a decision, or may even forget to come back.

I did a wedding years ago, where they forgot to pick the photos from their wedding. *(I don't remember which online site I was using back then, I think it was Flickr with watermarks. ) Literally 4 years later, they called and asked for their wedding photos from the package they chose, but couldn't remember the link. I explained that I don't do online proofing for weddings any more, and met with them face to face. I owed it to them, but I have to admit, it ticked me off that I was paying for photos from a different fiscal year, which was going to throw my numbers off.

A couple of years ago, when I discovered shootproof, I tried it again, and set the 30 day limit with a couple from Minnesota that came to the area (their families were from here) Same thing......forgot. Thankfully the photos aren't deleted from Shootproof until YOU delete them, or change your plan. I charged them another $20 to reactivate (and to motivate them to not procrastinate) ... again, they didn't pick any. I had to wait until they came back to visit family, and we picked out their photos together in one sitting.

People can't make decisions on their own. We are the pros, and we are here to help them. I'm saying that because it gets all too tempting to try to do all online proofing. While for an event, it's really the only way, because you don't want to have to make 1000 appointments, just know that your sales won't ever be what you expect with events.

The most profitable way is to print onsite, and it works for smaller events. (works well, my last one cleared $850 in about 2.5 hours.) Why? Because people are still caught up in the moment. Once they go home, the longer it takes for them to look at the photos, the less chance they will buy anything. Lesson 2 (and I'm done) never take longer than a day "tops" to get the photos uploaded to shootproof. If they aren't uploaded the next day, your sales will be cut by about 70%. 2 days 90%, 3 days... I wouldn't bother.

GOod luck. Sorry it's so long winded, but I've done a lot of research and testing in my area. Your results will probably be similar, but will probably be enough different that you'll need to tweak my system a bit to work for you.

jaysnave Loc: Central Ohio

Thanks Bob, I do appreciate all the thought you put into this post. Most of the events I do, they just want the digital files for newsletter, company magazine, etc... I usually don't get too many individual pics that would be purchased per your description. I don't know. I just feel so "shoot and burn" when I do events. The delivered product of lots of pics seems lacking, but maybe that is what event shooting is all about. I would like to hang out with you during one of your print on site events and get the feel of the Dye-Sub printer and selling 8x10s.

bkyser Loc: Fly over country in Indiana

Maybe we can do that sometime.

As for the others, I kind of misunderstood what you meant. You could probably get by with the Shootproof free plan. You could either allow free downloads if they paid up front, you just email them a PIN number to access the downloads, or you could just put a price on downloads, and they could pay through Shootproof.

The Gallery that you send the client is really nice looking. You can also break the gallery into subfolders, each with a title and cover photo. That way, it's easier for them to see "before event, during event, after event, and organizer group photos" without having to scroll through.

The beauty is that you can set that up for free, and test it out. If you don't like it, you just never use it.... but it's there if you do end up thinking of a project where it would be handy.

E.L.. Shapiro Loc: Ottawa, Ontario Canada

Except for weddings, I am not in the event business per se, however, many of my commercial customers hire me to cover conventions, trade shows and other corporate events. Usually I do not work on speculation where I would be depending on prints sales in order to show a profit. I charge my hourly or daily rate or provide the company with a package deal to accommodate their specific needs.

In some cases, the clients have expressed interest in my providing prints for the attendees. Oftentimes I am provided with a mailing list of the expected participants, exhibitors or guests so I can communicate with them and have them fill out a snail-mail or Email form whereby they can specify their requirements. As far as on-the-site sales of prints, I usually prefer to set up a printing operation for immediate delivery right at the location. In the past, I did not find that on-line orders were lucrative enough. I find when folks are having a good time and mixing with there friends and businesses associates, it's a "strike when the iron is hot" situation and sales are usually great. I usually supply folders or graphics (text) right on the images with corporate logos, event names and dates etc. The companies and event management folks like theses additional PR touches.

For charitable organizations, vets groups and some service clubs, I have operated on speculation and I hand over a portion of my take to the organization. For the Viet Nam vets and a few others, I do the whole thing as a fund raiser. I get a tax receipt for my expenses. Theses are not usually profitable ventures but i have personal connection with some of theses organizations and it ain't bad for community PR as well. I do fairly well on the corporate events and I keep my steady clients happy.

As for weddings and portrait sales, I NEVER GO ONLINE! I do all of my post-sitting and post wedding selection appointments in person. I use conventional proofs and project the images into large picture frames with projection screen material mounted in the frames. Most of theses clients are in mu service area and I find, after trying various approaches, that the OLD SCHOOL method is still best for maximizing each sale. I am still selling a good deal of albums and large wall portraits in premium finishes and frames. Even on modest sales, I prefer to guide the clients in ordering the best images, explain retouching and quality issues and make certain that they are entirely satisfied with their results and the financial arrangements.

I fully realize that folks are used to buying stuff online. My neighbors get more UPS and FED-EX deliveries form AMAZON and everywhere else, every day, than I do- and I am running a business. I know because I hold on to their parcels until they get home at night! For custom made products, I still prefer the personal face to face approach. It's a wonder that anyone still goes shopping in stores!

Kindest regards, Ed

bkyser Loc: Fly over country in Indiana

Hey Ed,
Good to know you agree about projection sales. What program do you use? I project the images, but don't know how to change the size so it shows in the frame, the actual size of the smaller prints. I just show them full size in the frame, and then hold up a 16x20, or 11x14 to show the differences.

I know there is a really expensive program out there that will let you change the size to smaller sizes without moving the projector. It would be pretty neat to do it, but I don't want to drop $600 to be able to do that, when I can hold up the smaller sizes.

I've wondered if there is a way to do it in lightroom, but have no idea how.

Just wondering what you do.
Thanks
Bob

E.L.. Shapiro Loc: Ottawa, Ontario Canada

Hey, BOB!

You're gonna laugh!

I purchased a Bessler OPAQUE PROJECTOR in 1970 and I still use it to this day. This thing projects (proof) prints from 4X5 through to 11X14 and the images are AWESOME- sharp and clear. It's mounted on a table with casters and tracks and is moved back and forth for various degrees of enlargement.

For portrait selection sessions, first we go through the paper proofs around the table and the best picks are projected. I have frames in various sizes; 40X60, 30X40, 24X30. 20X24 and 16X20. I also show some oval formats, "slim-jims" (panels), and a few odd sizes. They are mounted on a rotating kinda vertical lazy-Susan device so whatever frame is in place can be easily moved to a in a horizontal or vertical orientation. The "blank" frames are fitted with Foam-Cor boards with projection screen material glued to their surfaces.

The procedure at selection sessions works like this: The paper proofs are presented on our round table and the favorite picks are then projected. I always start with the largest appropriate size. Groups, full length and 3/4 length portraits are started off in the 30X40 format. If necessary, I can easily sell down to smaller sizes if my first suggestion is too pricey for the client. They may end up with a "small" 20X24 or 16X20. Perhaps a "gallery" of mixed sizes down to 11X14. I do not suggest "larger than life" head sizes- they tend to look "grotesque". Usually head and shoulder portraits will be shown in a maximum size of 24X30, especially if there is a vignette treatment or a composition that needs lots of space around the subject. This method works extremely well in that I sell a great deal of wall hanging portraits, premium finishes and decorator frames.

On any image, I can show the final composition, a pretty good idea of the density and contrast and I have been known to cup my hands in front of the lens and show how I will vignette the image.

Once the clients see, the larger images, it's sometimes difficult for them to reduce the size. Sometimes if the feel a 30X40 "to big" for a family group portrait, I point out that each "head" is about the size of a 5X7 or 8X10 head and shoulders portrait so the image, as a whole, will not seem disproportionately large. The frames are located over a sofa to give them scale and illustrate that the are not too big for an average living room or hallway.

The paper proofs never go to waste. I make them available in packages when large portraits are purchased. They make a great "closer" for big orders and as a pre-payment bonus.

With weddings, I simply show formal and casual images that would make fine wall hanging portraits, directly form the computer, on a 50 inch flat screen rather than on the small monitor.

I don't own a digital projector- I know that's crazy but my old clunker is still doing the trick. Every now and again I sell a 40X60 family or institutional portrait- 8 is my lifetime score.

Are y'all laughing yet? Theses session can take the better part of an afternoon or evening appointment. We make sure plenty of refreshments are on hand. One client said (about the projector) that it was like going to the movies- we served him some popcorn! The important thing, especially with families, is that folks do have fun. Everyone gets their favorite picks for projection. You gotta have SHOWMANSHIP!

Smaller sizes? No problem! We sell lots of 8X10, 5X7, miniatures and wallet size images- just like everyone else. The projection system just gives us a better opportunity to promote our larger formats.

With kindest regards, Ed

jaysnave Loc: Central Ohio

Thanks Ed, I think the real issue is that I love doing events. Some are charity (just did a Vietnam vet event) and I get paid for the corporate events. I would like to do more and am looking for that complete package to offer them. Something that separates me from others including their own staff. They don't have a budget for prints or photo books although I put together a video slideshow. I will PM you a link to my Vietnam vet slideshow. Spending the day with those guys and their families was very rewarding.

BermBuster Loc: Hi Desert S.Cal

jaysnave....I too am not too happy with my online system, But here is what I do for events:
I’m using Zenfolio, I have cards made up, that on the backside have my web address, My contact mail, and a space for “Gallery ID” & “Password”. Customers can also put an app on their phone:
If I don’t have time to set up a gallery for the event beforehand, I can easily set the parameters at the event. I’ll get the organizer, let them suggest a gallery name for their event, & make up a password - then fill out a few cards and hand them to the organizer...he/she has a few they can hand out, and they know where to point others for more cards (Usually I have a table set up). Then I take a cell picture of the card (So i don’t lose the info)...and have an assistant fill out several more...some for the table & others to carry and hand out.
I also ‘binge edit’..If I have time I can set up and start uploading pics at the event, but otherwise I try to have some up on the gallery the next day.
Custom edits and composites are available on request.
Depending on the event...sometimes the web site is just a way to distribute the pics...but prints are available..mugs..magnets etc...
Otherwise, the thumbnails are provided with set prices for prints.
I generally require an email for anyone logging into the site, which works great for personal requests(I can go in and see what pics they have downloaded or purchased).
For weddings it’s a good ‘proofing gallery’ before I meet with BG, and a good way for guests to purchase pics or make their own albums.
What I Like about this system...Many times at an event, I’ll be approached by one or several people- wanting their ‘own’ pics, say of coworkers, family, or themselves...I make a new card up, and they will have their own private pics to look at after the event. Many times this has led to another gig..of their family or company event.
The biggest thing I Don’t like about Zenfolio, Is not being able to let others “Upload” to a gallery. like second shooters.
At a few events, esp school reunions, I have offered to share ‘everyone’s’ pics from an event on my web site (I still profit from prints and services, even if downloads are free)...But everyone has to send me their prints to upload, which is a real pain!
Anyways, maybe you can use some of this, I like alot of the other ideas already shared..and I need to do alot of adjusting.
....I should add, that my website is more of a marketing tool than a money maker. I usually hand deliver my prints - but it reaches people I never met(except maybe I took their pic at an event),and gives them way to contact or refer me.

bkyser Loc: Fly over country in Indiana

I won't laugh at all. It's "kind of" how I do it with the digital projector. I move it forward or back. I just don't have multiple frames. May be a good idea, as I'm really not prepared to spend $600 to save me from rolling a cart a few feet one way or the other.

I have read about ways to do it with lightroom, but nobody ever shares exactly how to do it with lightroom. When I've experimented by projecting with the print module, the ratio of the sizes is OK, but it doesn't accurately show the real size of an 8x10 vs. a 20x30.

The main reason I want to be able to do it that way, is to do the presentation in people's homes. I don't want to carry several frames if I don't have to.

I have seen the programs where you can take a photo of someone's living room with a 8.5x11 piece of paper on it, then you can show them the photo on their wall. I did a variation of this, but on a small screen, it still isn't as impactful as seeing it life size.

Thanks for all you share Ed. It's very humbling to know how much I don't know, and I appreciate the time you take to help all of us. I try to do the same, but without nearly the same amount of knowledge.

Bob

jaysnave Loc: Central Ohio

Berm, I appreciate the advice. I think I need to have cards ready with instructions on where to go. When you say you make up cards, can you elaborate? You order cards from a source, write on the back of your business card, or just use good hand writing on card stock?

bkyser Loc: Fly over country in Indiana

Jay, don't discount the QR code route. I use a free QR code generator, type in the web address, then copy and paste the JPEG code onto whatever I'm handing out along with the web address for those stuck in the pre-smart phone era. (HAHA)

My traffic tripled once I started using that system.

bk

jaysnave Loc: Central Ohio

OK, I think I am well behind the curve with this type of system. I get the concept though. What I am not getting though is what is it you are handing out? Some card stock & printing you do yourself?

bkyser Loc: Fly over country in Indiana

I print it myself. I make it so I can cut about 5 per page. Very simply it's my logo as a watermark behind the print. The QR code on the right, and for the print, I have, would you love to see photos of ________(event name)? Scan the code, or go to __________(gallery address)

I don't push anything, or say anything about purchasing.

From there, on Shootproof, I can offer free downloads to organizers, or low cost downloads to participants. I just give the organizers a PIN number that allows them to download any or all of the photos at once.

Anyone else can download them for a small fee for each, or a larger fee and just get all of them. (nobody ever orders all of them)

bk

BermBuster Loc: Hi Desert S.Cal

My Cards are ordered, with a space on back to handwrite.... I'll attach a couple pics...
On my Website, I have to have pics in a "Gallery"...So clients have to have a 'Gallery ID' & Password to get in. Also, Most of the pics are hidden from visitor view, so they have to search (a link I call "Your Fotos") just to locate them.
I do a lot of Photoshop Composites, editing/repair, & (comes in waves)... editing of other photographers pics (Portrait/Commercial/Wedding).
So they don't want anyone to see their pics on my Website.
& my Cards have to be somewhat 'generic' in nature, because I might be at an event, and have to hand one out for a Photoshop project, then turn around and hand another out to someone wanting copies of wedding pics, because they live out of state.

It's a work in progress.. And I think I'll steal some of the other ideas you have been recommended :)

(Download)