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Am I simply an old "fart?"
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Aug 6, 2017 19:48:52   #
BlueMorel Loc: Southwest Michigan
 
PAR4DCR wrote:
I try to get the image right in the camera as best as I can. PP helps me correct things that I didn't get right in the camera and to see the image in different ways. I might like to see what the image would look like as a B&W, maybe enhance some color, noise reduction etc.

Don


I am trying to approach camera work like quilting - if I cut the patches wonky it takes a lot more work to get the blocks sewn straight. Same with my pics. I have SO many pics from before I got this Canon EOS camera that I wish I could redo, and I'd rather take decent ones and spend the exrra time up front rather unstitching everything and redoing it in PP.

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Aug 6, 2017 20:45:48   #
chevman Loc: Matthews, North Carolina
 
CaltechNerd wrote:
I'm another old fart. I DO focus on getting the best possible shot at any particular point. BUT I can't always frame the way I want with the lenses I have so I crop. And digital cameras just don't have the dynamic range of the human eye, so to accurately capture a scene the way it was, I may use "shadows" and "highlights" to recover what my eye saw. "Lens correction" makes straight lines straight again after the optics makes them curved. So far, it seems to me that I've recovered the original scene, not gone beyond it.

Then there are other options. I may use the correction brush (Lightroom) to put enough light on a person's face to recognize them. Something that wasn't an option when I took the picture. Is this no longer a photograph or is it just using the tools available? We've all seen the prints of Ansel Adam's pictures straight out of the camera and then after hours and hours of work in the dark room. So was he not a photographer taking photographs? Doing post is a personal choice, but to assume a moral superiority because you don't, doesn't make sense to me. You choose not to, good! I choose to use post, also good! What's to debate?
I'm another old fart. I DO focus on getting the b... (show quote)

I believe that some form of post processing is essential with digital photography.

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Aug 6, 2017 20:53:42   #
toxdoc42
 
Good for you, you have me by 10!

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Aug 7, 2017 05:37:41   #
Architect1776 Loc: In my mind
 
rgrenaderphoto wrote:
Analog was analog; digital is an entire new world. Take what you learned about exposure, composition and framing and embrace the new opportunities.



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Aug 7, 2017 05:40:04   #
Apaflo Loc: Anchorage, Alaska
 
toxdoc42 wrote:
I was taught to attempt to have all of my photos complete in the camera and to use my darkroom skills in to make good prints, but to depend on those skills to fix things I couldn't control in the camera. My classes all stressed that, and even limited my ability to use cropping. With digital, it appears that very often the dependence is the opposite. The trend seems to be to enhance the photographic image in post shooting. Often that changes what the actual vision of a scene was. This does make photography more like painting, but makes me wonder about all of the courses I took in the past.
I was taught to attempt to have all of my photos c... (show quote)

Ansel Adams didn't agree with you, and neither do I.

Previsualize the final image you want to produce and then use each tool in turn to make the photograph you want. Each stage is just as important as the others, and particularly in respect to each stage leading to the next. Camera work should be done with full knowledge of how it affects post camera work and knowing what post camera processing can do.

What counts is only the final product; how it was achieved is merely a matter of technical skill. Claiming "get it right in the camera" means little or no post processing is shooting yourself in the foot before you start. What comes out of the camera is right if it is the data that can be post processed, one eay or another, to produce the best final product.

That is not actually different than it was with film 40 years ago. Adams and National Geographic did it right, but you were taught how to do simple photography that required less money, time, and skill. Digital did not move the target, but has made it easier, quicker, and less expensive.

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Aug 7, 2017 05:40:46   #
jerryc41 Loc: Catskill Mts of NY
 
toxdoc42 wrote:
I was taught to attempt to have all of my photos complete in the camera and to use my darkroom skills in to make good prints, but to depend on those skills to fix things I couldn't control in the camera. My classes all stressed that, and even limited my ability to use cropping. With digital, it appears that very often the dependence is the opposite. The trend seems to be to enhance the photographic image in post shooting. Often that changes what the actual vision of a scene was. This does make photography more like painting, but makes me wonder about all of the courses I took in the past.
I was taught to attempt to have all of my photos c... (show quote)


Of course you try to get it right in the camera. The problem is that the camera is not as good as out eyes. Shadow and highlights can fool the camera. We use processing to make the picture look better than the camera made it. After all, a lot of processing goes on inside the camera before it produces an image. If you had to reproduce exact scene images for a court case, that would be a different situation entirely. My goal is to make nice pictures.

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Aug 7, 2017 06:08:41   #
canondave1 Loc: Houston, TX
 
ballsafire wrote:
Please don't refer to yourself as an "old fart." This is such a degrading disrespect for old age -- a time of self respect. Unfortunately I've been seeing this trend of self degradation too much lately and it certainly gives me the willies. The word "fart" is much stronger than the word "poot." Please just STOP this nonsense!! Any substitute such as "missing shigles," or "hole in the roof" would be in better taste. Forgive me if I have offended thee, and if I have, Kiss my royal ass!
Please don't refer to yourself as an "old far... (show quote)



My late father-in-law, aged 91, used that term a lot, but I think he meant it in jest.

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Aug 7, 2017 06:17:57   #
billnikon Loc: Pennsylvania/Ohio/Florida/Maui/Oregon/Vermont
 
toxdoc42 wrote:
I was taught to attempt to have all of my photos complete in the camera and to use my darkroom skills in to make good prints, but to depend on those skills to fix things I couldn't control in the camera. My classes all stressed that, and even limited my ability to use cropping. With digital, it appears that very often the dependence is the opposite. The trend seems to be to enhance the photographic image in post shooting. Often that changes what the actual vision of a scene was. This does make photography more like painting, but makes me wonder about all of the courses I took in the past.
I was taught to attempt to have all of my photos c... (show quote)


Learning basic photographic skills is of the same importance in film as digital. What makes a good photograph has not changed. The use of post production in digital has a lot of the same elements as with tray development. The main difference is now we have more post processing tools at our disposal. Yes, some folks completely change the scene in post, I on the other hand only remove shadows, highlight shadow details, I do basic stuff,as I would have with using enlargers and trays. As I am sure you are aware, the human eye captures a lot more tonal range than any camera ever produced, but with today's post production software, you can get close to what you actual eye sees. Nothing wrong with that.

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Aug 7, 2017 06:18:03   #
WessoJPEG Loc: Cincinnati, Ohio
 
ballsafire wrote:
Please don't refer to yourself as an "old fart." This is such a degrading disrespect for old age -- a time of self respect. Unfortunately I've been seeing this trend of self degradation too much lately and it certainly gives me the willies. The word "fart" is much stronger than the word "poot." Please just STOP this nonsense!! Any substitute such as "missing shigles," or "hole in the roof" would be in better taste. Forgive me if I have offended thee, and if I have, Kiss my royal ass!
Please don't refer to yourself as an "old far... (show quote)



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Aug 7, 2017 06:18:45   #
kymarto Loc: Portland OR and Milan Italy
 
Just as there are different styles of painting, so are there different styles of photography. I daresay that Chagall would not have lasted long in a painting course in the classical style, for instance. In music Fux's rules of counterpoint were a rigid framework for classical composers, but no one follows them anymore.

If your intent is photoreportage then do try to get in as close as possible to full tonal range in camera; otherwise the sky's the limit.

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Aug 7, 2017 06:23:56   #
krmitchell55 Loc: Springdale, Arkansas
 
Me four!

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Aug 7, 2017 06:46:09   #
crazydaddio Loc: Toronto Ontario Canada
 
burkphoto wrote:
I'm self taught, so I never got that brainwashing. However, I did learn to use slide/transparency film, after learning black-and-white. I learned VERY quickly that when using 'chrome films, I had to do EVERYTHING at the camera except, perhaps, push the film a stop. That meant getting the light right — ratio, color filters, flash, other kinds of
fill, reflectors, flags, color temperature meter... Whatever you wanted to do, you did it at the camera. Composition for slides must be done in the viewfinder! Yes, I had a great slide duplicator for multi-image work, but film duplicates of slides always gained contrast...

So getting it right at the camera for slides was good discipline — for recording great JPEGs!

Working with raw files is much like working with color negative film. You can get most anything you want from it, after the fact, including great B&W. OR, you can choose to record raw images with the menu settings most appropriate for the scene, and save yourself time in post production by getting close to what you want, at the camera.

Either way, there's no sin in finishing your visualization in post. Never was, except in the classroom, where the dogmatic instructors knew you would gain efficiency and quality if you paid the upfront price of attempting perfection at the start. Discipline and understanding and process are all worth something, as I learned the hard way.

These days, lots of folks figure there's so much latitude with raw capture, they'll just fire away in some auto mode and fix it later. Are they wrong? No. Just taking risks that may bite them on the butt every now and then.

All those rules they teach you in class? They're useful, but also crap. They give you perspective on the craft, but they can be barriers to creativity as well. Don't let them trap you. There are no rules, just math and the laws of physics. Go make great images.
I'm self taught, so I never got that brainwashing.... (show quote)


Well written and balanced....nicely done...

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Aug 7, 2017 07:08:45   #
cameraf4 Loc: Delaware
 
Another old fart and his two cents. I shot slide film exclusively for many years. There was no "post" before the slide show. That mind set has carried over. I try to "get the shot right" in every way I can before I press the shutter button. "Messing" with the image after the fact at first seemed "wrong." But then I remembered that Ansel Adams, Edward Weston, Aubrey Bodine, even Henri Cartier-Bresson spent hours in the darkroom making the image "just right." Very often, my "capture" is just what I wanted. But I am glad that now, when it isn't, I can bring out what I visualized and "paint it a little better."

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Aug 7, 2017 07:09:25   #
GMCJim Loc: York Haven Pa
 
And here I thought I was old. You guys are making me feel younger. I'm 58 but apparently just a snot nosed kid!

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Aug 7, 2017 07:20:58   #
Strofam
 
A good photograph consists of several elements - composure, focus and exposure. You can control all of these either pre or post taking the picture (focus is a bit more difficult). Digital cameras and post processing make this all so much easier.
And fun. But, you can tell when a photo has been "over corrected". To me, this is when the photo leaves photography and enters "art only". Is one better than the other? Depends on your goal. As a viewer, I admire a good photograph and well processed artwork. There is a lot that falls in between that may satisfy the originator but leaves me wanting.

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