Danny Nash

Hey friends.....hope everyone has had a nice Sunday thus far.
I'm quite frustrated and it's the same old story we've heard so often with regard to crop censor cameras in low or dim light. I'm in the woods a lot shooting wildlife and birds and my Canon 7D Mark ll and 100-400 ll just drives me crazy having to keep bumping the ISO to get a correct exposure. Virtually it's almost useless. I know it's been said an image with noise is better than no image at all but I'm not sure I go along with that. If I can't use the photo what's the point? Please don't address that at this time. It's a great setup in good light. I love the 10 frames per sec and the lens is amazing but I wonder how I would like a FF with the lens knowing I'm losing reach. Also what would be a good Canon FF that will shoot 10 fps? I can't afford the 1D so let's take that off the table up front.

Looking forward to your educated responses.

Thanks ~ Danny

So the questions

jeep_daddy Loc: Prescott AZ

There is no FF Canon that shoots 10fps other than the 1D series camera bodies.
The new 5D series cameras shoot 6 and 7 fps respectively. Even if the 5D series camera bodies did shoot that fast, they would still have noise when you crank up the ISO. I'd say that I can go a full stop higher on the ISO than the 7D II for respectable noise. I can usually shoot pretty high on the 7D II and get acceptable images. You just need to know how to use noise reduction software in Lightroom or use the software that comes with your Canon camera called DPP. It probably has the best noise control of any of the software out there. I have both a 7D II and a 5D IV. The reach that the 7D II has is beneficial to me since I don't have to crop as much. I can say this about the 7D II, it has a much better sensor than the old 7D.

imagemeister Loc: mid east Florida

To get what you want, you will have to leave Canon. The new Sony A99II does 12FPS @ $3200 - mostly nearly half the cost of a 1DXII. - but the lens is not as good ..........

imagemeister Loc: mid east Florida

The older 1D mk IV has a larger but dated H sensor - maybe not better than the 7DII for noise ? - about $1K today. - 16 MP, 10 FPS.

Danny Nash

I feel like I know how to use the LR noise reduction sliders but perhaps not to the maximum potential or there's more I haven't discovered. I'll look into the Canon software too. Any suggestions with regard to LR noise reduction would be appreciated. I have a friend who uses Sony and frankly I don't see anyone's images in sharper than hers but I'm not switching.

As always, great responses!

Much appreciated!

Danny

TriX Loc: Raleigh, NC

I think the high ISO noise difference between a good crop body like the 7D2 and a FF is the equivalent of 1-2 stops. For reference, I shoot my 5D3 routinely at ISO 6400-10,000 without objectionable noise when the situation requires it, but it will "only" do 6 FPS. As was previously mentioned, Canon's DPP has better high ISO noise control then PS's or LR's ACR. It is a noticeable difference, but I'm not sure how to quantify it - maybe the equivalent of 1/2 to 1 stop.

SharpShooter Loc: NorCal

Danny, welcome to the Hog.
Yes, a new FF does do better with noise than an equivalent crop BUT personally the FF is neither magical or is it the answer to your prayers. I think you are setting yourself up for disappointment.
Even without noise, low light has little highlight and contrast and that alone makes for a crappy photo.
I have both a FF and a crop and I don't see that noise differeance everyone talks about. Maybe get a couple of useful range, fast primes that will allow you to drop your ISO a stop or more. Good luck with THAT one!!!
SS

imagemeister Loc: mid east Florida

Danny, Let me tell you what I did .....

I used to shoot with Canon - 300 2.8 with 2X = 600mm f5.6 on a crop frame body ( 50D/60D)

Then I got a little Sony NEX3 to play with - I liked it - but still shot with the Canons tho. Then I got a little Sony cheap A3000 - then I got an adapter to put my Canon lenses on the little Sony - WOW - then I started using the Sony 1.1-2X Clear image zoom with my 300 2.8 on the A3000 and - WOW ! ( JPEG ONLY)

Eventually I got a Sony A77II and a Sigma 100-300 f4 in Sony/Minolta mount ( I was also using a Sigma 100-300 f4 on my Canons - so I knew what a great lens it was - especially next to the Canon 300 2.8) and sold my Canon 300 2.8 and 2X. Today I shoot the A77II and Sigma 100-300 f4 and use the Sony 1.1-2X CIZ - which allows me to get 100- 600mm @f4 ! ( no TC's - no light loss)

Below is a sample - shot wide open (f4) at 300mm plus 1.8X CIZ ( 540mm) in open shade.......with just a slight cropping left and right.

(Download)

Retired fat guy with a camera Loc: Colorado

How much money ya got? e-bay has some used 1Ds mark lll's for sale. I have the 1ds and the lll will be my next camera,

Mortsid

Set the shutter speed and desired aperture. Use Auto ISO.

amfoto1 Loc: San Jose, Calif. USA

Seriously?

I took nearly 8000 images yesterday with a pair of 7DIIs... mostly at ISO 5000 or 6400.

In fact, I've used the cameras as high as ISO 16000 with usable results. Here's a 7DII test shot done at 16000 (1/125, EF 100-400II at 158mm, f/5):



Sure, there's some noise in that image.... But it's so well controlled a very nice 8x12 or even 13x19" or larger print can be made from the image.

Short of the 1DXII, in addition to the slower frame rate you've noted, none of the FF Canon are going to gain you more than maybe one or two stops higher usable ISO, you'll lose a lot of the "reach" of your longest telephotos and won't be able to use about 25% of the available Canon lenses (and a lot of third party lenses). You'll also have a slower 1/200 or 1/160 flash sync with full frame, compared to 1/250 with the 7DII. If you ever use flash, that might be important. And, full frame cameras are sometimes noisier, due to the larger mirror and shutter (my 5D Mark II has caused horses to "go vertical" a lot more often than any of my APS-C cameras).

In fact, flash may be a partial answer... Often wildlife ignore it as if it's a distant lightning flash or glint of the sun off water or glass. But flash does slow down your shooting.... Unless you spend a small fortune on highly specialized strobes, you get no more than 2 or 3 shots in a burst before a flash needs to pause and recycle, even with a supplementary power supply. And after some 50 or 100 shots in fairly quick succession, the flash is likely to shut down for fifteen minutes or half an hour, to prevent overheating.

A couple things that can help with high ISO shooting are to shoot RAW and be very careful to avoid underexposure, then post-process with some noise reduction applied (I like and use Imagenomic Noiseware as a plug-in to Photoshop... it's also available as a stand-alone program). Above shot of my cat was shot that way, but did not get any extra noise reduction... Just the default NR settings in Lightroom.

The other very common "problem" is often how people view and evaluate their images. While it can be necessary and useful to enlarge an image to "100%" or more on your computer monitor for retouching... that's ridiculously large magnification to evaluate image qualities such as noise, resolution and focus accuracy. With a 20MP camera, that's roughly equivalent to making a FIVE FOOT WIDE print and viewing it from 18 or 20" away. OF COURSE it looks like crap! Back off and evaluate these things at a more reasonable size... more like the actual, final size the image will be used. A 16x24" print is "40%". Heck, even 20x30" is only 50%. A digital display of any image is likely a whole lot smaller than those. The fact is that YOU are likely the only person who will ever see your images at ridiculously large magnifications, since other people only see the finished results.

Of course, if you crop images a lot, that can be another factor. Cropping a full frame image down to APS-C dimensions is essentially "throwing away" nearly 60% of the camera's available resolutions. So do all you can to "fill your viewfinder" with your subjects, to keep cropping to a minimum.

Stop your whining! Back in the days of film we shot wildlife images with Velvia 50 and Ektachrome 100 VS. The fastest slide film I used was ISO 200. Today, using 7DII I rarely use any lower than ISO 400 and those cameras have "cleaner" images than ISO 200 slide film, at ISO 6400 or even higher! That's at least 5 or 6 stops "faster"... 32X to 64X greater sensitivity than E200! 128X or 256X more sensitive than Velvia!

The other solution... faster lenses. Same as you, I use and really like the 100-400 II. However, in some of the more extreme low light situations I need to shoot, I know it's f/5.6 is just not adequate so I switch to f/4 or f/2.8 lenses. In fact, I did that yesterday, using Canon 70-200/4 on one camera and 300/4 on the other, most of the day. I needed 1/320 minimum (and preferably faster) to shoot an equestrian event... fast moving subjects... in a covered arena that's probably darker than your "woods".

P.S. A 1Ds Mark III will do you no good what-so-ever.... It's ISO range is 100-1600, expandable to 50 and 3200. In fact, my Canon 5D Mark II uses the same 21MP sensor as 1DsII, but the 5DII has ISO range of 100-6400, expandable to 50, 12800 and 25600. The 5DII can shoot continously at about 4 frames per second... the 1DsII isn't much faster: 5 FPS. 5DII also has a better LCD monitor and video capabilities. It just lacks the autofocus system of the 1Ds-series (which is essentially the same 45-point system as in my EOS-3 film cameras).

5DII at ISO 6400, 1/200 (EF 135mm f/2L at f/2):


5DII at ISO 6400, 1/30 (EF 20mm f/2.8 at f/11):


I tried to keep my 5DII to ISO 12800 at the highest, but preferred to use 6400 or lower. I'll be updating to 5DIV in the not-too-distant future and expect it will be usable to ISO 25600 or 32000, though of course I'll keep to lower ISO as much as possible. 5DIV can do 7 FPS continuous shooting... up from the 6 FPS of the 5DIII.

speters Loc: Grangeville/Idaho

If you take the 1D off the table, then you're out of luck, there's no other Canon FF that will shoot at 10fps or more, the next down in line is the 5D, which will give you 7fps, but that's a lot slower! So, the 1D series is the only fast FF Canon makes, all others are slow cameras!

TriX Loc: Raleigh, NC

While fast glass may be an option up to 135 or even 200mm, you'll get a lot more bang for your buck going to FF + SW beyond that. Assuming that FF gives you 1-1/2 stop, plus another 1/2 stop using DPP vs ACR - that's 2 stops (plus what you can get from noise reduction SW), and can be had for $1500-3,200 (used 5D3 or new 5D4). To buy yourself a 2 stops faster lens than the 100-400 f4.5-5.6L, will cost you 6K$ at 300mm and 10K$ at 400mm (not to mention the size and weight). And unless you're a professional sports photographer, do you really need 10 fps?

Blurryeyed Loc: NC Mountains.

Danny, I had the same problem with my 7D mkII and when the new 5D mkiv came out I started saving my pennies, got the 5D mk iv and let the 7D mkII go and don't regret it. 7fps vs 10fps in my opinion is not that big of a deal, ISO performance is as well as 30mp made the 5DIV a choice I could live with, the 5DS will suffer similar noise problems as does the 7DII, the resolution of that camera is amazing, but I, like you, can't live with the noise.

sirlensalot Loc: Arizona

Had similar problem with older 7D shooting sports in low light. 5D (original) a little better (still not great) but FPS too slow. Went to a Sony a6000. Much cheaper solution for my needs. Maybe with an EF to e-mount adapter, it's possible it may work for you for wildlife.