bajadreamer Loc: Baja California Sur

I have a Canon 5D IV that I use with a variety of lenses. I occasionally use a flash, either a Canon 430II or a Yongnuo 600ex-rt. My primary shooting settings are locked in on Custom 1 mode. Those settings include Manual mode, Auto ISO and a SS of 1/640.
The problem comes when I attach the flash. Whether or not the flash switch is on or off, the camera defaults to Iso of 400 and a max SS of 1/200. With my 7DII, those same defaults occur when the flash switch is on but when the flash switch is off, the camera reverts back to the C1 settings, or Auto ISO with no max SS.
I would like to have the camera use my original settings when the flash is off and the "flash" settings when the switch is on. As it is now, I have to physically remove the flash unit from the hot shoe to revert back to the original settings.
Am I missing a menu setting or is that just the way the 5DIV is?

billnourse Loc: Bloomfield, NM

I don't have any custom settings in mine, but I just tried the flash and found that when the flash is attached and off I can set any shutter speed I want. As soon as I turn the flash on the camera defaults to 200, turn it off and it goes back to my setting.

Bill

bajadreamer Loc: Baja California Sur

Are you using a Canon flash?

billnourse Loc: Bloomfield, NM

Yes.

rehess Loc: South Bend, Indiana, USA

My understanding is that standard Canon TTL behavior is for the camera to switch to "appropriate" settings when it detects a compatible flash. My Pentax cameras do the the same kind of thing - the Super Program I bought in 1984 does it and the K-30 I bought in 2015 does it. My Pentax cameras show a lightning bolt in the viewfinder when that happens {I don't remember whether the Canons I had 1995-2015 showed anything in the viewfinder}

amfoto1 Loc: San Jose, Calif. USA

Bill and Baja,

You really need to read the camera and flash manuals.

The flash sync of 5DIV is 1/200. (This is true of all the full frame 5d models. The 1D-series which are 1/250, 80D and 7DII's is 1/250. Rebel series are 1/200. 6D is 1/160, if memory serves).

The flash sync is the fastest shutter speed the camera will allow, when using a flash... The camera will override any other settings you've made, as soon as it detects the active ETTL/ETTLII flash in the hot shoe.... Unless you override it (see below, we'll get back to this after some other things).

ETTL or ETTL II flash will fire "FULL" when you set the camera to M and turn off Auto ISO. When used... fully M settings plus ETTL flash... it actually becomes a "FULL" flash auto exposure mode. The camera fires a low-power (1/64) pre-flash and meters the scene, then adjust the "real" flash to properly illuminate it.

ETTL or ETTL II flash will fire as reduced power "FILL" when the camera is set to any auto exposure mode. Auto exposure modes are: Av, Tv, and P... as well as M with Auto ISO.

So, if you want flash to be your primary light source... set the camera to M and turn off Auto ISO... and the flash will fire FULL.

But if you want the camera to set auto exposure according to ambient light conditions, then use any of the auto exposure modes (Av, Tv, P or M with Auto ISO) and flash output will be 1-2/3 stops reduced, to act as FILL.

In either condition... FULL or FILL... you can increase or decrease the flash output manually by dialing in Flash Exposure Compensation. This works and is controlled exactly the same way as Exposure Compensation (without flash).

In either condition... FULL or FILL... you can turn on HSS or "High Speed Sync" on the flash, so that the camera will be able to use shutter speeds faster than its flash sync speed.

HOWEVER, using HSS greatly reduces the flash's reach. HSS is done by shortening the flash exposure and timing it with the faster than sync shutter speed. The faster the shutter speed is above the camera's flash sync speed, the less distance the flash will be able to illuminate. This can be particularly problematic if you're bouncing the flash or using any sort of diffuser on it. HSS is best used with direct flash.

When using FULL flash, the flash itself acts sort of like a shutter. The typical duration of full flash is approx. equivalent to 1/720 shutter speed. So I would recommend setting the camera to M and turning off Auto ISO. Select your aperture using the distance scale displayed on the back of the flash. This shows the usable distance range of the flash, and on most flashes can be set to read out in your preference of meters or feet. (Note: if you have a hard time judging the distance to your subject, if your lens has a distance scale try pre-focusing on the subject, then checking what the lens' scale. In other words, use the AF as a range finder of sorts.)

Hope this helps!

Tracy B. Loc: Indiana

Great explanation! I hope Bill and Baja read it.
Thanks.

billnourse Loc: Bloomfield, NM

I have read both the flash manual and camera manual and understand how they work. As I understand the question of the OP, it was whether the camera would go to any camera setting as long as the flash was off. We both understand that the camera will default to 1/200 sec when the flash is attached and turned on. He asked if the camera should allow any setting if the flash was turned off, even though it was on the camera. My answer was that with my 5Dmk4 and 600 Canon flash, the camera would default to 1/200 sec if the flash was turned on. If it was turned off, the camera would function just as if the flash was not attached even though the flash was still attached.

He is having to remove the flash to go to regular settings instead of just being able to turn the flash off and leave it on the camera. My answer was that my 5DMk4 would default to 1/200 when the flash was on the camera and in the on position, and that it would act like it wasn't attached at all if I turned it off. OP specifically stated that his 7D MkII would do it, but the 5dMk 4 would not.

Seems you might have misread the question.

Bill

bajadreamer Loc: Baja California Sur

Thank you for a great explanation. Sometimes it definitely helps to review the basics. Unfortunately, my question is not about the function of the flash. My question is why does my camera not recognize when the flash is on or off. I have the camera in M mode (auto ISO) and attach the flash to the hot shoe; before I turn the flash on the camera continues to behave normally and I can set my SS to any value I want. However, once I turn the flash on, the camera will not allow the SS to be adjusted to any value faster than 1/200 (I do not have HSS turned on). This is all normal and expected. What is not expected is that when I turn the flash off, the camera continues to behave as though the flash was still on. It will not allow the SS to be adjusted beyond 1/200. I have to physically remove the flash unit from the hot shoe before the camera will allow the SS to be adjusted beyond 1/200.

Mark Sturtevant Loc: Grand Blanc, MI

I had a slightly different though possibly comparable situation in my set-up. There, I could set the shutter speed to, say, 1/2000 with the flash off, and when I turned on the flash the camera would still display 1/2000 when I expected it to revert to 1/200. I think what I did was to press the shutter halfway down, or maybe take a picture (can't remember), but whatever it was I could easily get the display to correct. I did not have to remove the flash.

jeep_daddy Loc: Prescott AZ

I think some people have not read and understood the problem. If I am reading this correctly, the camera is changing the settings even if the Speedlite is off. This should not be happening. Yes, the camera should change the shutter speed to the max sync speed when it detects a speedlite but only after it is turned on. I suggest that you do a reset of your camera. I had a little glitch on my 5D Mark IV and reset it and things worked fine after that. You will have to change some of your preferences back the way you like them, but most will remain the same.

If the problem persists, then you might need to take it in and have it checked out.

bajadreamer Loc: Baja California Sur

Thank you for your thoughts. I have discovered it is a flash unit problem, not a camera problem. The problem occurs when I use the Yongnuo flash but when I borrowed a Canon 600 unit the camera works as it should. When I use the Canon 430 flash the camera also works well, but only when the batteries in the 430 are relatively well charged. Once the batteries go way down, the camera behaves badly. So, moral is: use Canon gear only.

jeep_daddy Loc: Prescott AZ

happy sailor Loc: Ontario, Canada

I have both the Canon 600 and the Yongnuo 600 and a Yongnuo trigger. When just using a flash on the camera (not very often, prefer off camera flash) I haven't noticed any differences with either the Canon or the Yongnuo. I have a Canon 6d (sync speed is 180 for it btw).

Now I will have to run some tests to see if I get the same that is happening with your Yongnuo. Interesting.

And Alan that was a nice condensed version of how they work!!

SharpShooter Loc: NorCal

Baja, this is in no way a "I told you so", but I've been preaching "Canon Only" gear for as long as I have been using Canon. Not because I feel it's better, but I always say the Canon gear is designed to always work with itself. Lots of r&d goes into that.
Funny, but when it came time to update my old flash, I was almost seduced by the cost of the Yongnuo 600.
But I wanted a workhorse that would never skip a beat, so I went with a Canon 600 at a much higher cost for my main light and figured I could get yongnuos for additional slaves if I needed them.
Not a lecture, just why I paid a hell of a lot more for the Canon flash!!!
Btw, I've seen used Canon 600's at KEH for $300. I'd rather have a 100% compatible well used Canon 600 than a new Yongy!!! Good luck
SS