canon Lee

I am shooting a swim club at the pool. I am using 2 Canon 580EX2 speed lights, with my Canon 7D. I am using wireless "pocketWizard PLUSX radio's. One radio on camera shoe, the other plugged into one of the speed lights. Both speed lights are on stands with umbrella's. Speedlights are set as MASTER / SLAVE. ETTL on and set as 3+. I am facing the "wireless sensors towards each other. Just one sensor blinks.
Here is my problem. Both lights go off , but the light without the radio plugged in, goes off delayed. As a result its flash is not captured.
I am wondering if the built in "external metering sensor" is affecting the delay?
NOTE.... If I don't use my PocketWizards radios and mount one of the speedlights on the camera shoe, both lights go off simultaneously. So why the delay using the radios?

Leitz Loc: Solms

If both lights go off as expected, what's the problem??

canon Lee

Yes both lights go off but one light is delayed. why? If I don't use the radios then both lights go off simultaneously. How can I correct this delay using my radios.?

burkphoto Loc: High Point, NC

Two receivers on same channel. No Canon sync off of another Canon flash.

Try reducing your shutter speed until it it works... Maybe you could live with that.

Leitz Loc: Solms

Then they are not going off as expected! I'm joshing you, of course. I have no experience with flash triggers, but others will help solve the issue. Good luck!

NoSocks Loc: quonochontaug, rhode island

Bring back the Flashcube! Never a bad problem...never a good photo!

burkphoto Loc: High Point, NC

CaptainC Loc: Colorado, south of Denver

Maybe I not understanding your setup but you CANNOT mix Pocket Wizard PlusX ("dumb" trigger) with the proprietary Canon or Nikon systems. One just fires when it gets a signal from the PlusX in the hot shoe. The other you appear to have set up a TTL which I can pretty much guarantee wilt not be compatible with the PlusX. You appear to be attempting to combine two very different systems and that will not work,.

canon Lee

Hi, I don't really understand the 580EX2 wireless mode. This is my solution. I know that the only way the speed lights will sync and go off at the same time is to mount the speed light on the camera shoe. The PlusX is not compatible so I can us it. With that in mind, I set up a "master/slave setting , then, I put an umbrella behind the camera and faced the flash head into it. The other speed light is mounted to a stand with an umbrella. I am using a wireless device ( CamRanger) to activate the speed lights/camera & settings from an iPAD.
I believe you may be on to something, in that the master goes off immediately and the other is delayed to sync to it. It works only in ETTL not manual, so maybe the delay comes from the ETTL adjusting to the light? Well you know as seasoned photographers that you have to be a McGiver some times. ITs a RUBE GOLDBERG arrangement but it works and that is all that matters.

canon Lee

You nailed it. I learned that the Plus X is not compatible. A lesson learned. thanks. Look above as to how I got around the problem for the pool shoot.

speters Loc: Grangeville/Idaho

I use, or should say used(nowadays I only shoot my 600'RT's) most times my 580's with PW (TT5's) and never experienced what you have. I can not say what's causing this. there is always a trigger delay (close to the sync. speed), but not to the extent you're describing. Try shooting with a bit slower shutter speed and see , if you see improvement!

canon Lee

Hi.. I am doing portrait work and I need both 580's to go off at the same time.. I don't have any problems with my AilenBees on a shoot, just the speedlites. perhaps the PW tt'5 is compatible with the Ettl in the 580ex. Thank you.

burkphoto Loc: High Point, NC

Did you try slowing down the shutter speed?

Most Canons sync at at least 1/160 second. I found that a studio strobes' high output often decays over a longer period of time, and to get the full exposure, I needed to slow down the shutter to 1/125.

I have heard stories about some of the less expensive Pocket Wizard knock-offs requiring 1/60 or 1/30 second sync speeds when combined with other systems... But I have not had to address this myself. You may want to try every reasonable speed below the Canon's native sync speed, to find out whether there's a practical solution.

I would rather use all manual strobes of the same brand for portraits. Canon's shoe mount systems are okay, so long as you use compatible units, but they don't play well with others.

If memory serves me, the 580 series uses infrared transmitters and receivers, not radio triggers. So there should be no interference. But there may be a time delay. (Camera "talks" to radio transmitter, transmitter signals radio receiver unit, receiver unit fires Master flash, Master fires sub-unit...) If the delay is long enough, your shutter closes before the second flash fires.

If all else fails, there are always long sync cords... PC to household adapters can work with long extension cords in a pinch.

amfoto1 Loc: San Jose, Calif. USA

The problem is that you are mixing two different triggering/control systems....

PW PlusX are simple transceivers... all they do is trip a flash or strobe. They have no additional means of "communication".

Canon ETTL is through-the-lens metered control... a completely different and much more complex system of triggering flash while also controlling it's light output using two-way communication and interaction between the camera's metering system and the flash. This simply cannot be used in conjunction with those PW transceivers.

Basically you need a third PW PlusX unit. "Transceivers" such as these can act either as transmitters or as receivers. You need one in the hot shoe where it will act as a transmitter and two more (one at each of the flash units) where they will act as receivers. The way you are setting things up - with one unit in the hot shoe, the second at one of the flashes, then hoping somehow that will in turn trip the other flash - simply won't work.

Next, turn off the master/slave function of the flash units, switch them to Manual (instead of ETTL) and set the desired output of each flash manually. This can be set to full 1/1 or some reduced level (in 1/3 EV steps) by pressing the button in the middle of the dial and then rotating the dial. The EV level selected is shown on the flash's LCD screen. You'll see one third EV steps as a 1/1 -0.3, 1/1 -0.7, then 1/2, 1/2 -0.3, -0.7, 1/4, 1/4 -0.3, etc. Actually for sake of simplicity and because it sounds like you are trying to use the flash in a fairly large space, I'd suggest you start out leaving them at full 1/1 initially, not dial them back for now.

So next you'll need to calculate your figure out the correct exposure values at the camera. Use no faster than the 1/250 flash sync shutter speed (7D's and PW PlusX's top sync speed.... slower shutter speeds can be used But faster can't because there's no "high speed sync" possible with the radio triggers). Take test shots and adjust the ISO and aperture to get the desired exposure.

It is possible to further adjust by reducing the power of the flash itself... Or doing that in combination with the ISO/aperture combo that minimizes ambient light, i.e. more "full flash" in your images.... Or a combo that uses a greater amount of ambient light with the flash serving as "fill flash".... except to do fill you will likely also need to put some sort of colored gel filter over the flash heads so that the color of the flashes' light will better match the color of whatever ambient light you have to work with. Fill flash also usually means slower shutter speeds that might be an issue (see below), so I think it probably better to work with full flash in this instance.

When using "full flash" the shutter speed really doesn't matter much, so long as it's no faster than than the camera's max sync speed (1/250 in this case). The duration of the flashes themselves will act like a shutter... Most will make for something equivalent to approx. 1/720 shutter speed (it may be even faster if the flashes were used at more reduced power levels). In other words, the flash itself will freeze movement, even though your shutter speed might be slower than you'd normally want to use for action shots.

When using "fill flash", shutter speed is more important, as it is part of the control over how much ambient light is recorded along with the flash. But fill flash also can often cause "ghosting", where the subject sort of appears twice in an image... once as exposed to the ambient light (incl. any motion blur when it's moving) and again as illuminated by the flash. This tends to be more pronounced when the brightness of the flash is relatively similar to the ambient light level... when each are contributing about the same amount of light too the image. Because of this and the likelihood that the color of ambient light and flash are quite different, you probably would be better using the "full flash" technique that relies almost entirely on the flash to adequately illuminate the subject(s).

Take test shots and tweak the power of the flashes and settings of the camera to get the results you want.

Alternatively, a handheld flash meter can be used to more quickly arrive at a fairly accurate combination of flash power levels, ratios between multiple flashes, and appropriate camera settings to use with manually set flashes.

While you won't be able to use it with the PocketWizard transceivers... just so you know... the way ETTL works is actually by firing the flash twice. Prior to the actual exposure, a very low power flash is emitted (1/64), which the camera's metering system reads and uses to determine a "correct" power level for the actual flash during the exposure. The low power "test" flash and the actual flash for the exposure happen so quickly that people often only perceive a single flash. But if additional flashes or strobes are being triggered optically, that first "test" flash will often cause them to fire too early to sync properly with the camera's shutter.

ETTL would allow use of High Speed Sync.... timing the flash with shutter speeds faster than the camera's standard max sync.... but at significantly reduced distances.

ETTL also can allow use of Second or Rear Curtain Sync, which makes for a more "normal" looking ghost/blur effect. For example, if you take a shot of moving cars at night with standard First Curtain shutter sync, the cars' lights will appear to be as a streak in front of the car itself, which was recorded in the image early in the exposure by the flash.... It looks as if the cars were being driving in reverse. SOrt of odd. But, using Second or Using Rear Curtain Sync delays the flash until the very last part of the exposure, so that the light streaks instead appear to be "behind" the moving cars.... which is much more normal looking. The same occurs with ghost blur.

High Speed Sync and Second Curtain Sync cannot be used at the same time. But if you think about it, that makes sense because they serve somewhat opposite situations. HSS is used with fast shutter speeds, while Rear Curtain Sync is used with slower ones.

If you wanted to use ETTL, you would need another flash that can act as Master in the hot shoe of the camera. Canon 500-series and 90EX flashes can act as Masters... 200, 300 and 400-series cannot. Most can act as Slaves. Alternatively, you could use a Canon ST-E2 Speedlite Controller module in the hot shoe. There also are third party flashes and controllers that can do similar. Note: 600-series and 400-series "RT" or "radio controlled and triggered" flashes and controller ST-E3-RT are designed to work with each other, but are not compatible with the above "optically controlled and triggered" units. There are some third party receivers and controllers that convert the optical units to radio control and triggering, supposedly making the optical units able to work in combination with the radio controlled units.

When using ETTL, you need to be aware of another thing... The camera's exposure mode setting is important. Canon ETTL will cause flash(es) to act as a reduced power "FILL FLASH" whenever you set the camera to any of the auto exposure modes (Av, Tv, P or M w/Auto ISO). The camera uses the ambient light conditions to establish a "correct" exposure, then only fires the flash at roughly 1-2/3 stops reduced output, as fill. If instead you want "FULL" FLASH", you must set the camera to M or Manual exposure (with Auto ISO disabled). In M the camera will ignore ambient light conditions and fire the flash to make for sufficient exposure. In other words, M with ETTL flash is actually just another auto exposure mode! (You'd have to set both the camera and the flash to M, for it to truly be fully manual exposure.)

Both ETTL fill and full flash can be further fine tuned by dialing in "Flash Exposure Compensation". This is much like using Exposure Compensation in the AE modes (Av, Tv, P or M w/Auto ISO)... Except FEC instead adjusts the flash's output. You mention "dialing in +3" in your initial post, which would very probably make for massive over-exposure if you were actually using ETTL flash (but you're not, because of the PocketWizard modules in between the camera and the flashes).

One more thing to consider is your flash's angle of coverage setting. You can change this manually by pressing the "Zoom" button and then using the dial to select 24mm, 28mm... etc. up to 105mm. The tighter this beam, the more reach you'll have with any given power output and the more power will be conserved. However, the narrower "telephoto" settings will limit coverage and where you'll be able to shoot... You'll need to aim the flashes carefully and limit your shots to just the area being illuminated. Alternatively, a wider setting will give you broader illumination that's less limiting, but with less distance and the flash will need to fire more strongly and more fully discharge with each "pop". This will usually make for longer waits between shots due to slower recycling and more rapid battery drain. It can help speed up recycling to use rechargeable AA batteries in the flash (Nicads, not Lithium because they tend to overheat with heavy, repeated use). It also can help to use an external, supplementary power pack such as Canon's CP-E4 (filled with 8 more rechargeable AAs, so the flash now has a total of 12 batteries to draw upon).

Using flash in sports calls for more careful timing of individual shots. You'll need to set your camera to single shot and cannot use continuous shooting, except possibly with low power fill flash where several "pops" are possible before the flash(es) needs to pause to recycle. Finally, using flash for multiple shot in fairly fast succession can lead to overheating. The flash is designed to self-detect and shut itself down when this happens. Usually no harm is done and it will simply resume working after it cools off, which may take 5 or 10 minutes or even longer, depending upon ambient temperatures and conditions.

Hope this helps!

Edit: Someone above mentions using PocketWizard TT5s with 580EX... those [u]ARE[/i] ETTL compatible radio transceivers (i.e., the Canon-specific model of TT5 supports two-way camera/flash communication), and are much, much more expensive than simple, universal PlusX "triggering" radio transceivers.

canon Lee

I did try your suggestion to no avail. I think the PW is not compatible.