Richard94611 Loc: Oakland, CA

Recently one of our group's members told me “Love it or leave it” regarding my feelings about the United States and the political scene here. This has always seemed to me to be a truly ignorant remark, and I have always shrugged it off as that. But this time it caught me in the midst of reading Howard Zinn's History of the American People, and the irony of the comment really struck me.

The comment is glib, easy to make, and doesn't show or depend on any kind of knowledge at all. It expresses nothing more than jingoistic, non-thinking, knee-jerk patriotism.

But there is something about it much worse than that. It demonstrates total ignorance of American history.

If that sort of attitude had prevailed before the American Revolution, the people who wanted an independent nation would have left and we would still be a colony of England.

In fact, much of the history of this nation is based on people loving this country enough to stay and make things better. That's what real patriotism is – not the sort of jingoistic cant one or two readers have expressed here.

Our world today is based on the actions of people who loved this country enough to stick around and improve it. Would these readers want women still to be what amounted to surfs of men ? Would they be more comfortable now if women didn't have the right to vote ? Do they still want women to be paid much less than men for equal work ? I ask because these are the implications of “Love it or leave it.”

And then there was that problematic group of Blacks who were slaves. Would the “Love it or leave it” crowd still want slavery ? There were a lot of people who didn't want to be slaves – and maybe who actually wanted to leave, but couldn't. What about the entire civil rights group today ? Should all people who want everyone to have civil rights leave instead of have the same rights as everyone else ? Maybe we should adjust “Love it and leave it” to “Love being a slave or leave.” But since they couldn't leave, and were caught, punished and brought back top the plantation, maybe the phrase should be "Hate being a slave but you cannot leave."

And what about Native Americans ? They wanted nothing more than to love their land and stay on it – and they were repeatedly pushed off it, lied to, disenfranchised, and cheated as they were forcibly relocated to less and less desirable areas. I guess “Love it or leave it” didn't apply to them. What was enforced was the slogan, “Love it AND leave it.”

The jingoistic ignorant don't consider these things when they say “Love it or leave it.” They would have us all just bear injustice and shut up. That cannot happen.

Robert Graybeal Loc: Myrtle Beach

Blacks, slaves, American Natives, ...
What the hell does all that crap have to do with 'Love it or leave it'?
On one point you are right, love America enough to stay and change things, if not - leave.
I say that with all sincerety and I assure you that I am not
ignorant of American history.
LOVE IT OR LEAVE IT!

Richard94611 Loc: Oakland, CA

If you don't see what "all this crap" has to do with "Love it or Leave It", then there really isn't much that any further explanation can accomplish for you. I won't waste my time repeationg what I have written.

wrr Loc: SEK

lol @ lioli

PatrickTheCop Loc: Spartanburg, SC

I think Richard's point was eloquently self-explanatory. It is a valid argument with good examples in suport of his position.

sinatraman Loc: Vero Beach Florida, Earth,alpha quaudrant

what is in the past is in the past. It is the ultimate in cultural superiority to judge 17th, 18th and 19th century actions with 21st century values. Was our treatment of the Indians wrong? yes, so was the Brits treatment of the Irish, so was the Japanese treatment of the Koreans, the romans treatment of the Carthaginians, the Aztec's treatment of everybody around. The point is every ethnic group has been discriminated and persecuted by other ethnic groups at some point in human history. slavery was wrong but we at least fought a war to end it. The shocking reality is more people are slaves around the world today then were slaves in 1860. No one is claiming America is perfect. It is still a better option than any other country on earth. If all you see is what is wrong with America, and not what is right or special, perhaps you would be better off in France.

ephraim Imperio

Amen ++++ Sinatra Man.

rpavich Loc: West Virginia

I guess I don't get it.

America exists because men:

1.) Didn't love their situation.

2.) Left it to build a new life.


That's the very definition of love it or leave it is it not?


I also don't think it's a knee-jerk reaction or statement to say "love it or leave it." It's only pointing out that if you are not happy where you are; then go someplace that makes you happier....people do it all of the time, it's a perfectly valid approach.

Thankfully our founding fathers didn't like the way they were being governed and left.

MsJ Loc: Northern Indiana

OMG...why do we have troops in other countries then...if we don't LOVE the way other countries are run, shouldn't we LEAVE them then?

If women don't like the way we are being treated, shouldn't we all just leave then rather than fighting for justice and equality?

If white males don't like the new changes that make them equal to, rather than superior to...shouldn't they just leave then?

Ridiculous statement, showing someone's lack of compassion and inability to discuss problems intelligently and showing their frustration instead.

ted45 Loc: Delaware

Perhaps you should listen to what is being said. A great number of people, usually liberals, just want to sit around an whine about what went on in the past. Understanding the mistakes and the lessons of our forefathers is what made this a great country. What we went through is what made us who we are today. As Sinatraman pointed out we fought a war to end salvery. In fact, we are the ONLY country to fight a war to end salvery. I for one am tired of hearing people whine about it.

Love it or Leave it means stop whining about the past and start doing something to improve the future. Susan B. Anthony did not sit around whining about how women before her were treated; she went out and changed the way they were treaing her, her contempories and all the women that followed her. Maybe we should change the saying to "Love who we are, get off your ass and change it or Leave. Either way; Stop Whining!"

mvy Loc: New Hampshire

"Love it, or leave it."

I agree. This phrase speaks to the jingoism prevalent in today's political commentary.

I think the remark reflects the simplistic, either or mind set of people who can't rid themselves of the childish urge to have what they want "right now" in spite of the consequences.

Martin

MsJ Loc: Northern Indiana

According to you, then, all talking about a problem is whining! Susan B did not shut up and make changes alone! I'm sure you would have accused her of whining had you been around. Liberals care enough to stay and change things. She was considered a liberal, by the way. The whining is saying..LEAVE it if you don't like it. Tsk, tsk, tsk...so much intolerance and arrogance.

rpavich Loc: West Virginia

Do you know what a straw-man argument is?

It's when you mischaracterize the argument of someone whom you disagree with and then go on to argue against your own "made up" argument.

Did the poster say that "all talking about a problem is considered whining"

?

No...he didn't say that....you did.

BigBear Loc: Northern CT

Our founding fathers did not leave because they were already here. They were under British rule here in America but they didn't leave. They changed the circumstances here. They fought here to end the British ties that they no longer tolerated.
They didn't love it, they changed it as we don't love it the way it is and doing what is necessary to change it.

ted45 Loc: Delaware

MsJ: When you keep going on and on about the same old stuff it is whining. If I were a less evolved man, I would say that it is the nature of women to whine, so Susan B would have been a whiner :)

(If your head hasn't exploded yet; that was a joke.)