JohnTxNC

When you are editing portraits, do you crop BEFORE you edit, or do you (as I do), crop AFTER you edit allowing the flexibility to create multiple sized crops later?

I hear so many "PROS" talk about 'cropping' BEFORE - especially in Photoshop. Why take time editing something you won't use, they say! But what's discarded in Photoshop is gone forever and it's a bit hard (impossible) to create a usable 8x10 AFTER it was cropped to a 4x6 format, i.e.: chopped toes/elbows, etc. Also, it is hard to explain to a "Brides Mother" that the 16x20 Canvas Print she wants out of a 4x6 tight cropped Proof is not available! As a note, suggesting the 8x12 or 12x18 to the client does not count and isn't a fail safe solution. People LOVE their 8x10's, & 5x7's!

Keep in mind, this question is about editing People rather than wildlife or landscapes - unless - those images are contracted and the client has a stake in framing of the final product.

Thanks! And More:

Please feel free to expand on methodology and reasons why.

Here is one of mine: In Lightroom, I create a "Copy" of the final edited image, for each crop size I develop. I also "color code" each size differently. This way, I can sort the"yellows" (for 5x7) and get all of the 5x7's at once for a batch export. When I export a 5x7, I will include -57 in the batch naming process to distinguish it from the same image cropped to an 1114 - 11x14.

Thanks!!!

SharpShooter Loc: NorCal

How will you know where NOT to edit if you haven't cropped yet?!
Why waste time editing areas you don't need to work on.
If you only do global PP it won't matter but if you're doing a lot of localized PP every inch you don't need to work on is just a waste of time. No?
SS

JohnTxNC

Hey, SharpShooter... I am glad someone has taken up that mantle right away. I give you the flexibility to crop away a portion of an image, (known waste), but if you crop first and then edit a wedding party (as a 4x6 format), and the client later asks for the 8x10 format, you can't provide, without chopping elbows or toes. If you edited the whole image, you will have the flexibility to offer multiple crops.

btbg

I agree with sharpshooter. In the situation that you describe I don't think I have a problem because I crop to the largest size that I'm going to offer and make all the other print sizes that I will offer in the same shape. Example 16x20, 12x15, 8x10, 4x5.

The one exception to that is that if the person is having a book printed Then I may crop some photos to odd sizes so that they look good in the book and not offer those as prints. The other alternative is to offer prints any size they want, but print with a wedding related border example use a portion of the brides bouquet as the border to go around the outside of the print making the format match how you cropped but still offering the size print that they want.

Post processing is too time consuming, especially on anything difficult or special to waste time post processing the part you aren't going to use. And if you are doing anything special like fading images lets see how that looks if you try to do that and then crop after the fact.

Also I crop my images, when necessary, to make them as strong as possible. Since my name is on the finished product I don't want to offer a print in a size that doesn't show the subject off in the best way possible.

JohnTxNC

Good comments.... In Lightroom... the fading "vignetting" is produced during the export process. It's not an adjustment brush action performed during the primary editing process. So, if I edit the whole image and create two crop sizes, - one might be a full body image that highlights the location and the second may be a tight upper body crop, both images will have 'vignetting' applied evenly, or not . . . if I decide to remove it form the location full body view.

I spent a small fortune for my daughter's wedding photographer and he left everything in a tight 4x6 format and then added shading/vignetting to most everything too, killing our chances to frame in different sizes. Oh the money I wasted on that guy!

And as an honest disclaimer, I am not a "wedding photographer", but this subject grates me, due to our own personal experiences.

Thanks for your feedback!

catalint Loc: oslo

Hi
this is an interesting subject to me since I've been thinking about my self.
BUT: While I was learning to use LR from Tony Northrup's video tutorials on youtube, I know there was a statement that cropping should be done at the end. Because you blow up the photo and then the pixels are getting bigger. Applying PP after the crop it may result in more noise, and more visible pixels. But I think it has to do with how much you're going to crop like SS and Btbg mentioned.

I for one, I do the cropping at the end. It's a habit for me I guess. A while back, I was pretty much cropping my picture heavy, simply cause I was not so used to take care of the composition factor. But with time, I see I crop much less.

I'll be following this thread as I want to know more about it myself.

C.

Rongnongno Loc: FL

Crop, no crop...

First off it takes place while composing IN CAMERA. You always need to plan for the final products(s). The most restrictive is the key*. When dealing with the initial SOOC capture you must vision/plan the final product, SMALLER than the frame offered so that the residual margin can be used if there is a need for straightening. On a tripod, if you are experienced, it will rarely happen. Handheld on the other hand it is a must to plan for errors - so that you can correct it/them if you make one. Better safe than sorry.

To claim that you edit better if you crop before because of your final format is counter productive. Just consider the variety of formats/ratios that can be pulled from a single capture you must give this up rather quickly unless you want to waste your time 'PPeing' every crop. Good luck with that. Still, to each their own, I guess.

Basically, in my opinion, for whatever reason, training/habit/whatever each photographer creates his/her own workflow that fit the person's style. Bad habits are hard to break and anything can be used justify them.

I pay attention in SOOC first.
I process whole (not only global - local edits are there to stay too).
I crop at a set requested ratio STILL with a proportional margin to allow for framing, Yes, those pesky little things can also cut toes and chop-off hairs.
Note that I use crop to rectify the vertical lines if needed and then apply a vignette or not if the capture demands it.

Since a crop can be redone in seconds I save the un-cropped version first (and stop saving the file). Crop/straighten/last touches, print/export to printer outfit. If or when I need a newer crop ration I just press F12 to return to the saved version and repeat the steps as many times as necessary.

Sounds more complex than it really is but it saves time and is, in my opinion much more efficient than having multiple copies of the same thing with a different ratio.

By the way... This is where high pixel cameras excel...
Oh, since I am at it... Shoot raw too!!!

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* 1x1 is the real b*** here. If you need this ratio among others you will have some serious crops in all the other ratios so beware and even just take two shots if you know this is going to be a liability.

lamiaceae Loc: San Luis Obispo County, CA

Portraits, usually afterwards for easy cropping for various sizes and ratio. Most other subject, I might do it first or afterwards. And sometimes I pretty "crop" it in camera.

Nothing is lost forever in a Ps image as long as you still have the original Camera image, as you should. If one may have several possible uses for a final image, one should work from a master copy. For me it is virtually impossible to permanently edit or alter a RAW file (can anyone?). From my original Pentax (PEF or DNG) image everything from that is going to be one of PSD, TIF, or JPG file. Is it even possible to create a PEF, CR2, NEF, etc., Raw file from other than a camera? But sure once you crop you may have to PP your original image again for a different orientation or ratio.

WorldTraveler Loc: San Antonio, TX, now in Greenfield IN

I'm just beginning to get to the editing of photos, and rather slow on the task of post production work, so please bear with me. I am assuming that a photographer will "cull" the shots taken, eliminating the obvious non use able shots and at some point put together a package of the remaining photos.

1. Do the customers have any input as to the final pictures i.e. say removing a tree or fence in the background, etc
2. In the customer's file (I'm assuming a copy is retained of most of the original photos) would allow future sales, possibly changes to pictures that might have transpired in the course of time.
3. Are only the photos that are finally proofed and approved/purchased by the customer kept, not a copy of original photos retained?

Thanks for your patience,

Clint

Rongnongno Loc: FL

Whatever you do the Client is king. He/she is PAYING you so, yes, you must take care of their whims and wants. This does not mean you should do it for free.

A minimal PP is always needed but if you have a wedding in the middle of a parking lot and the guy wants you to take the cars out, sure, no problem: Here is the bill (hefty), and expect it in a few weeks if not months* (time to return to the place and take images from the same spot and time/lighting conditions to create a composite). (If it was snowing make that a year, at least!!! )

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* And make them pay in full in advance. I have seen 'alliances' that lasted less than a couple of weeks!!!!

jeep_daddy Loc: Prescott AZ

I usually crop first. I do this because then when correcting w/b, exposure, clarity, and all the other things we do to our images, I'm not editing pixels that I'm going to throw away. So crop first, edit, then sharpen last. Sharpening is done one way for viewing on the computer or web or email, and more sharpening if printed.

speters Loc: Grangeville/Idaho

Yes, if I do any cropping, that is the first thing I do. That way, everything after is customized towards the cropped sized image, that includes the sharpening as the last step, which will be just the right amount for the cropped size!!

lamiaceae Loc: San Luis Obispo County, CA

"Feel the power of the Photoshop side of the digital image." Someone who likely knows what they are doing. I had not thought of customizing Sharpening for various uses. I usually only vary the file size or resolution for say printing vs email. Actually, jeep_daddy, what and why work flow do you follow for various end uses. Why not Sharpen to the highest you may want and let the "lessor" media reduce that as they do?

I usually leave my "finished" images as PSD 10x15", 300ppi, 16-bit files; for Emailing or Web publishing I may change to JPG 6x9", 150ppi, 8-bit files. I mainly only use any Sharpening at the ACR point. I'd need some instruction on how to work Sharpness into that.

Linary Loc: UK

Cropping in both Lightroom and Photoshop CC are non-destructive so I don't really see a problem. Even easier in Lightroom is the use of virtual copies which enables unlimited crops at any stage of the pp process.

I process the image, make a virtual copy, crop to any particular sizes I require then finish the processing to suit the size. If I crop in Photoshop, I always leave the "discard cropped pixels" box unchecked.

travisdeland Loc: deland, FL

[quote=JohnTxNC]When you are editing portraits, do you crop BEFORE you edit, or do you (as I do), crop AFTER you edit allowing the flexibility to create multiple sized crops later?]

I've always cropped as a last step. For the most part, my PP workflow is global. As for cropping last, I was told in a seminar that you hold onto the maximum amount of image data by cropping at the end.